Photon ECM Evade

bizibetiko
bizibetiko
Greenhorn
Joined Jun 2013 Posts: 2
Hi,
This may be a dumb question but I'll ask it anyway. I've redeemed the Photon ECm but the base hull only has 15% evade yet the briefing shows it as 35% evade and a couple of videos on youtube show it as being 35% in one and 25% in another, what am I missing?
  • patrick.wouters.545
    patrick.wouters.545
    Greenhorn
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 7
    Upgrate lab plus bonnus allie ...
  • The Qing
    The Qing
    Master Tactician
    Joined Dec 2013 Posts: 2,453
    This has to do with your tac lab. A fully upgraded tac lab gives bonus 20% evade on all PvE ships (apparently additively)
    Playing this game is like trying to row a boat up a waterfall.
  • DerpyTheCow
    DerpyTheCow
    Master Tactician
    Joined Aug 2012 Posts: 2,231
    The Qing said:
    This has to do with your tac lab. A fully upgraded tac lab gives bonus 20% evade on all PvE ships (apparently additively)
    It's my understanding this is displaying wrong, as I've seen evade numbers get over 100% (Which is not possible). 
    15% evade on the hull and 20% from the lab should be .15 + .2(1-.15) = 32%
    32% vs 35% is a small difference but it starts being much more noticeable at higher evade levels.

    That...or >100% evade means the turret shoots itself 
    When I am not helping people on forums, and I'm not banned, I run a YouTube channel.  I focus on actually helping players in the game. I respond to every comment on there, so it is the best way to find me. If you want more info click the link below.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/DerpyTheCow47?sub_confirmation=1
  • bizibetiko
    bizibetiko
    Greenhorn
    Joined Jun 2013 Posts: 2
    Thanks for all the replies. My tac lab is only at 9, I came back to the game a couple of months ago after a few years away.
  • michaelg21
    michaelg21
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 1,924
    edited 17 Oct 2020, 8:55PM
    It would definitely be nice if Evade displayed correctly. It hasn't ever in the history of the game that I am aware of. Maybe someone from Kix could weigh in and tell us what the theoretical max evade is. Last I heard it is less than 90%. But I may be mistaken. This also goes along with Stun resistance which can display as over 100% but never actually gets that high. This was another issue in the older days.
  • Paul Larkin
    Paul Larkin
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Nov 2010 Posts: 286
    Are they subtracting evade now if you don't have fully upgraded labs?

    As the OP stated the Raid Briefing shows the evade bonus for the hull at 35%
    This stat from kix in the raid briefing should be the base evade state - before any lab upgrades are considered,.
    Upgrading labs should take the evade above the base evade -
     Conversely, Having less than fully upgraded labs should simply give the base evade for the hull - Not lower evade -

    According to the above comments, then my lab being below the max level reduces the evade by 20% compared to the original base evade:
    35% reduced down to 15%?


    From the Raid Briefing: Evade: 35%



    From Intelligence lab in my base: Evade: 15%




    -20% reduction penalty because my labs aren't at max level?

    Raid briefing Link: https://www.kixeye.com/forum/discussion/777337




  • jschlueter1
    jschlueter1
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2015 Posts: 699
    edited 17 Oct 2020, 10:42PM
    Are they subtracting evade now if you don't have fully upgraded labs?

    As the OP stated the Raid Briefing shows the evade bonus for the hull at 35%
    This stat from kix in the raid briefing should be the base evade state - before any lab upgrades are considered,.
    Upgrading labs should take the evade above the base evade -
     Conversely, Having less than fully upgraded labs should simply give the base evade for the hull - Not lower evade -

    According to the above comments, then my lab being below the max level reduces the evade by 20% compared to the original base evade:
    35% reduced down to 15%?


    From the Raid Briefing: Evade: 35%



    From Intelligence lab in my base: Evade: 15%




    -20% reduction penalty because my labs aren't at max level?

    Raid briefing Link: https://www.kixeye.com/forum/discussion/777337




    Yeah, no. Besides, if you'll notice, the evade from your lab says "plus 15%", not just "15%", which means you get an increase of 15% evade.

  • Alexa the BAE
    Alexa the BAE
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2014 Posts: 673
    It is shocking to think a warmonger requires knowledge of specs when the people
    who produce the product and create the specs do not seem to understand them.
    All hull stats in briefing should contain the most basic of numbers.
    Nothing prematurely inflated should be indicated or implied.

    "a computer once beat me at chess but it was no match for me at kick boxing"
  • phil.rothwell.5
    phil.rothwell.5
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 978
    The Qing said:
    This has to do with your tac lab. A fully upgraded tac lab gives bonus 20% evade on all PvE ships (apparently additively)
    It's my understanding this is displaying wrong, as I've seen evade numbers get over 100% (Which is not possible). 
    15% evade on the hull and 20% from the lab should be .15 + .2(1-.15) = 32%
    32% vs 35% is a small difference but it starts being much more noticeable at higher evade levels.

    That...or >100% evade means the turret shoots itself 
    I thought all evade was multiplicative? and numbers above 100 were ok as in practice: evade minus accuracy = actual evade applied.

    I looked up original photon raid stats and confirmed they were 35%. This is what is showing in stat block of hulls already built. However I would have expected the stat block to show true evade? This would in my mind be 35 on base hull, 20 from upgraded tac lab and not forgetting the 20 from R&D? 

    Do Kix actually use all the bonuses from the R&D or have these been forgotten about?

  • DerpyTheCow
    DerpyTheCow
    Master Tactician
    Joined Aug 2012 Posts: 2,231
    The Qing said:
    This has to do with your tac lab. A fully upgraded tac lab gives bonus 20% evade on all PvE ships (apparently additively)
    It's my understanding this is displaying wrong, as I've seen evade numbers get over 100% (Which is not possible). 
    15% evade on the hull and 20% from the lab should be .15 + .2(1-.15) = 32%
    32% vs 35% is a small difference but it starts being much more noticeable at higher evade levels.

    That...or >100% evade means the turret shoots itself 
    I thought all evade was multiplicative? and numbers above 100 were ok as in practice: evade minus accuracy = actual evade applied.

    I looked up original photon raid stats and confirmed they were 35%. This is what is showing in stat block of hulls already built. However I would have expected the stat block to show true evade? This would in my mind be 35 on base hull, 20 from upgraded tac lab and not forgetting the 20 from R&D? 

    Do Kix actually use all the bonuses from the R&D or have these been forgotten about?

    I don't know for sure on the Photon question, but I do know how evade works.

    Basically, the extra evade you add only applies to the remaining bit. What this means is if you have 60% evade and add another 40%, you have the original 60% and 40% complement. This is .60 + .40(1-.60). = 76%. This is multiplicative behavior.

    You can never get to 100% evade with multiplicative behavior.

    Are they subtracting evade now if you don't have fully upgraded labs?

    As the OP stated the Raid Briefing shows the evade bonus for the hull at 35%
    This stat from kix in the raid briefing should be the base evade state - before any lab upgrades are considered,.
    Upgrading labs should take the evade above the base evade -
     Conversely, Having less than fully upgraded labs should simply give the base evade for the hull - Not lower evade -

    According to the above comments, then my lab being below the max level reduces the evade by 20% compared to the original base evade:
    35% reduced down to 15%?


    From the Raid Briefing: Evade: 35%



    From Intelligence lab in my base: Evade: 15%




    -20% reduction penalty because my labs aren't at max level?

    Raid briefing Link: https://www.kixeye.com/forum/discussion/777337




    Yeah, no. Besides, if you'll notice, the evade from your lab says "plus 15%", not just "15%", which means you get an increase of 15% evade.

    I am fairly sure that "+15%" means evade still stacks multiplicativly and does not change to being additive (but the shipyard displays this wrong)
    When I am not helping people on forums, and I'm not banned, I run a YouTube channel.  I focus on actually helping players in the game. I respond to every comment on there, so it is the best way to find me. If you want more info click the link below.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/DerpyTheCow47?sub_confirmation=1
  • jschlueter1
    jschlueter1
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2015 Posts: 699
    The Qing said:
    This has to do with your tac lab. A fully upgraded tac lab gives bonus 20% evade on all PvE ships (apparently additively)
    It's my understanding this is displaying wrong, as I've seen evade numbers get over 100% (Which is not possible). 
    15% evade on the hull and 20% from the lab should be .15 + .2(1-.15) = 32%
    32% vs 35% is a small difference but it starts being much more noticeable at higher evade levels.

    That...or >100% evade means the turret shoots itself 
    I thought all evade was multiplicative? and numbers above 100 were ok as in practice: evade minus accuracy = actual evade applied.

    I looked up original photon raid stats and confirmed they were 35%. This is what is showing in stat block of hulls already built. However I would have expected the stat block to show true evade? This would in my mind be 35 on base hull, 20 from upgraded tac lab and not forgetting the 20 from R&D? 

    Do Kix actually use all the bonuses from the R&D or have these been forgotten about?

    I don't know for sure on the Photon question, but I do know how evade works.

    Basically, the extra evade you add only applies to the remaining bit. What this means is if you have 60% evade and add another 40%, you have the original 60% and 40% complement. This is .60 + .40(1-.60). = 76%. This is multiplicative behavior.

    You can never get to 100% evade with multiplicative behavior.

    Are they subtracting evade now if you don't have fully upgraded labs?

    As the OP stated the Raid Briefing shows the evade bonus for the hull at 35%
    This stat from kix in the raid briefing should be the base evade state - before any lab upgrades are considered,.
    Upgrading labs should take the evade above the base evade -
     Conversely, Having less than fully upgraded labs should simply give the base evade for the hull - Not lower evade -

    According to the above comments, then my lab being below the max level reduces the evade by 20% compared to the original base evade:
    35% reduced down to 15%?


    From the Raid Briefing: Evade: 35%



    From Intelligence lab in my base: Evade: 15%




    -20% reduction penalty because my labs aren't at max level?

    Raid briefing Link: https://www.kixeye.com/forum/discussion/777337




    Yeah, no. Besides, if you'll notice, the evade from your lab says "plus 15%", not just "15%", which means you get an increase of 15% evade.

    I am fairly sure that "+15%" means evade still stacks multiplicativly and does not change to being additive (but the shipyard displays this wrong)
    Yeah, I was just addressing the general concept, not the actual math (I dislike math :D )
  • phil.rothwell.5
    phil.rothwell.5
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 978
    Thanks Derpy....My Bad...of course multiplicatively we are looking at diminishing returns therefore 100% is only achievable if you reduce decimal points and round up, more than 100% would indicate an error somewhere.

    I am still interested in the Photon issues regarding evade, perhaps a Mod can give a more definitive answer? There does still appear to be an issue? 
  • DerpyTheCow
    DerpyTheCow
    Master Tactician
    Joined Aug 2012 Posts: 2,231
    Okay, I sat down and figured out what we knew was going on already.

    This is a screenshot of my Photon ECM Blueprint from my intel lab. Notice it has 15% evade. 



    This is a screenshot of a blank Photon ECM in my ship design menu. Notice it has 35% evade. 


    Where did the extra 20% come from? I'm glad you asked. This comes form the maxed out Tactical lab (from this thread). Note that "T9 PvE only" still includes tier 9.5 (I would like to know what will happen with Tier 10... but that is a different story).



    This evade is being added on the tooltip display menu in the in-game shipyard. This is in error and it should be following the multiplicative (diminishing returns) of evade. I am sure that the actual evade calculation done by the battle server is correct and is doing the evade calculations correctly. 

    What does this mean for you? Nothing really. It just adds some confusion, and it also means you're getting less benefit out of that last D5-EV armor you might add then you think you are getting (not that I'd recommend that). It also means that the evade number in the shipyard is wrong, subtract 20 and then use the formula total evade = old evade + .20 * (1 - old evade). 
    When I am not helping people on forums, and I'm not banned, I run a YouTube channel.  I focus on actually helping players in the game. I respond to every comment on there, so it is the best way to find me. If you want more info click the link below.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/DerpyTheCow47?sub_confirmation=1
  • Espeon
    Espeon
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Jul 2013 Posts: 362

    @DerpyTheCow said:
    (Quote)
    It's my understanding this is displaying wrong, as I've seen evade numbers get over 100% (Which is not possible). 
    15% evade on the hull and 20% from the lab should be .15 + .2(1-.15) = 32%
    32% vs 35% is a small difference but it starts being much more noticeable at higher evade levels.

    That...or >100% evade means the turret shoots itself 

    I mean over 100% evade isn't really much of a weird problem with how it interacts with accuracy. If you have 110% evade and the other ship has +110% accuracy, in reality it would just make it follow a weapons normal accuracy rating on it if I am remembering this correctly lol

    image
  • Sputnik001
    Sputnik001
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Jun 2013 Posts: 1,547
    Okay, I sat down and figured out what we knew was going on already.

    This is a screenshot of my Photon ECM Blueprint from my intel lab. Notice it has 15% evade. 



    This is a screenshot of a blank Photon ECM in my ship design menu. Notice it has 35% evade. 


    Where did the extra 20% come from? I'm glad you asked. This comes form the maxed out Tactical lab (from this thread). Note that "T9 PvE only" still includes tier 9.5 (I would like to know what will happen with Tier 10... but that is a different story).



    This evade is being added on the tooltip display menu in the in-game shipyard. This is in error and it should be following the multiplicative (diminishing returns) of evade. I am sure that the actual evade calculation done by the battle server is correct and is doing the evade calculations correctly. 

    What does this mean for you? Nothing really. It just adds some confusion, and it also means you're getting less benefit out of that last D5-EV armor you might add then you think you are getting (not that I'd recommend that). It also means that the evade number in the shipyard is wrong, subtract 20 and then use the formula total evade = old evade + .20 * (1 - old evade). 
    Re T10 hulls, it means the Intel lab goes back to what it was used for before...........a paper weight.

    OR a more realistic output, more upgrades, the OP plus all the others so as to include T10 hulls....
  • George Hart
    George Hart
    Greenhorn
    Joined Jul 2015 Posts: 15
    Yes But There Are Crews To Increase Or Put Evade Over The Top As Well, That Is Of Course If The Crew Actually Works... Also Is It Not True That No Stat Technically Works Past 100% Or Am I Wrong?? ;)
  • Templar614
    Templar614
    Moderator
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 14,928
    Espeon said:

    @DerpyTheCow said:
    (Quote)
    It's my understanding this is displaying wrong, as I've seen evade numbers get over 100% (Which is not possible). 
    15% evade on the hull and 20% from the lab should be .15 + .2(1-.15) = 32%
    32% vs 35% is a small difference but it starts being much more noticeable at higher evade levels.

    That...or >100% evade means the turret shoots itself 

    I mean over 100% evade isn't really much of a weird problem with how it interacts with accuracy. If you have 110% evade and the other ship has +110% accuracy, in reality it would just make it follow a weapons normal accuracy rating on it if I am remembering this correctly lol

    That is not correct. It ends up being Hit Chance = Accuracy x (1 - evade), so evade greater than 100% ends up with a negative accuracy.
  • Templar614
    Templar614
    Moderator
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 14,928
    Yes But There Are Crews To Increase Or Put Evade Over The Top As Well, That Is Of Course If The Crew Actually Works... Also Is It Not True That No Stat Technically Works Past 100% Or Am I Wrong?? ;)
    There are stats that work when you get above 100%. Accuracy for one, survival for another.
  • Templar614
    Templar614
    Moderator
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 14,928
    Just to confirm, what Derpy has said is correct.

    The Photon has 15% evade, and that is it.

    The 35% evade being shown in the briefing is because the base has a maxed out Tactical Lab and gets a +20% evade bonus to go with it, and that evade bonus is being shown as straight addition in the shipyard tool tip, which is not correct. This is an issue that the team is aware of and is on their list of things to fix.

    Feedback in regards to using the maxed labs for screenshots has been passed up as well. Ideally it will be labeled in the future as to whether it is vanilla stats or if there is a lab bonus in effect and what the vanilla stats actually are.
  • CS_Hank
    CS_Hank
    CS Manager
    Joined Apr 2018 Posts: 41
    Hello all, Just so you are aware, we have passed on a collection of these reports and feedback to the Game Team for further review.  More info to come in the near future. 
  • BANZAI09
    BANZAI09
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Oct 2012 Posts: 238
    its just kix math, not to follow !!!
  • Max Thornton
    Max Thornton
    Incursion Leader
    Joined May 2012 Posts: 1,064
    edited 31 Oct 2020, 2:15PM
    Never mind.
  • CM_Ghillie
    CM_Ghillie
    KIXEYE Community Manager
    Joined Jun 2019 Posts: 2,941
    CS_Hank said:
    Hello all, Just so you are aware, we have passed on a collection of these reports and feedback to the Game Team for further review.  More info to come in the near future. 
    Thanks Hank. Closing thread, but will update somewhere more visible if/when we have more info. 
    Battle Pirates Community Manager
This discussion has been closed.