Time on forums

John Mair Snr
John Mair Snr
Skilled Warrior
Joined Nov 2012 Posts: 325
Seriously Kixeye to you want us to play the game or spend
our BP time reading the forums just to figure out how to play
this silly game because that's what I seem to be doing.
The game is getting too complicated for the average player I
want to log on do a few chores smash a base or two have some fun
I dont want to spend hours on forums trying to work
out how most of the stuff works you are just driving
customers away. 
Keep the game simple and make BP great again
Ahoy me Mateys!!!
  • TRUCULENT2
    TRUCULENT2
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Mar 2014 Posts: 2,844
    Try Farmville, its simple. Candy Crush is simple too - Simple games for simple minded folks. 


    I have a hard time believing that we are dealing with a company that is brilliantly scamming us AND entirely incompetent. 

    This is a private company in a capitalist market trying to make money - your money. Give it to them, or don't - but don't fault them for trying. 
  • michael.west.750
    michael.west.750
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 1,598
    The op has a valid point. People want to play a game. They don't want to spend most of their online time reading forums, watching vids on facebook or other social media, to find out what's going on with the game they want to play.
    .
  • Carlos_DaPoof
    Carlos_DaPoof
    Master Tactician
    Joined Mar 2018 Posts: 2,104
    Once again, complaining players tend to grossly over exaggerate the issue to make it sound like the end is coming if the game isn't changed to their liking.
    There are players out there that like digging into the numbers to determine the best strategy.  
    I dispute that anyone who plays this game "spends most of their time reading forums" 
    You don't have to have the best of everything to play this game, but if you want it there shouldn't be a problem doing a bit of research to suss it out.
    " I see no solid discussion or argument. Just whining and name calling. You pose no reason or logic to back up your position and can't articulate a reason why "
  • kris1019
    kris1019
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Sep 2011 Posts: 3,474
    If you want a game where everything is cookie cutter then I suggest you look elsewhere. This game does have a strategy element to it. Improvise, adapt, and overcome.
  • filmbryan1
    filmbryan1
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,775
    The op has a valid point. People want to play a game. They don't want to spend most of their online time reading forums, watching vids on facebook or other social media, to find out what's going on with the game they want to play.
    I get that, but there has been a disturbing trend the last few years. It is the one where a new player gets in the game and is handed new tech. Instead of that player learning the mechanics they just build what someone tells them to do or they pull build off the TFC page. They learn nothing and anytime a monkey wrench is thrown into the machine they wilt. This isn't everyone of course, but more and more players I am running into that are well over lvl 80 still have no idea how to build on their own, drive fleets properly, or what is required to keep advancing. Yes the game can be complex. The math involved can be irritating at times. However over the years we will see posts that are created because a player has not done a simple search. Kixeye is partially to blame, but this player base also should be held responsible.
    You will only receive my scorn from this point forward
  • John Mair Snr
    John Mair Snr
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Nov 2012 Posts: 325
    The op has a valid point. People want to play a game. They don't want to spend most of their online time reading forums, watching vids on facebook or other social media, to find out what's going on with the game they want to play.
    I get that, but there has been a disturbing trend the last few years. It is the one where a new player gets in the game and is handed new tech. Instead of that player learning the mechanics they just build what someone tells them to do or they pull build off the TFC page. They learn nothing and anytime a monkey wrench is thrown into the machine they wilt. This isn't everyone of course, but more and more players I am running into that are well over lvl 80 still have no idea how to build on their own, drive fleets properly, or what is required to keep advancing. Yes the game can be complex. The math involved can be irritating at times. However over the years we will see posts that are created because a player has not done a simple search. Kixeye is partially to blame, but this player base also should be held responsible.
    Simple research is fine but spending endless hours researching FB and Youtube to find answers
    takes away from game time. 
    People have been playing for years and still have no idea how half the stuff works
    I am not that interested on how "by pass" or "deflection" work I just
    want the bottom line without all the garbage (mathematical formulas) in between.
    Keeping the game simple will attract and keep players make it too complicated
    and players will say "**** this"
    Ahoy me Mateys!!!
  • d039901
    d039901
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2012 Posts: 652
    edited 26 Sep 2018, 4:25PM
    New players have to take some level of accountability for learning the mechanics and basics of the game. I've noticed that after alliances became a formal thing a lot of players were coddled along the way and have never bothered to even try to understand the fundamentals. If I had a coin for every time a lower level player asked me for "help" (which is really just code for, "Can you spend your coins so I don't have to spend mine?") I could coin every ship in the game 1,000 times over.

    Seriously ... go out and open your own salvs. Figure out a way to mine your own uranium and titanium. Be a problem solver, not a whiner.

    That said, I do agree with the previous poster Michael West in that playing a simple Facebook game should not require an advanced mathematics degree. It's VERY clear that those with coding or math backgrounds have a major advantage in this game (I choose to believe that over thinking that there are rampant cheaters lol) and I don't think that's fair. Significantly more transparency from Kixeye around the way tech ACTUALLY works should happen.
  • VvVvVvVvV
    VvVvVvVvV
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Jan 2012 Posts: 1,144
    New players? what new players? When was the last time you saw a cluster of new bases in your sector from enthusiastic younglings?

    Those of us that have been playing for a long time are too "inside the box", since the complexity has been accumulating slowly over the years. Try and imagine what it would be like to start this game from zero, faced with dozens of hulls in a lot of categories -- 95% of which are obsolete, but you won't know that without a lot of research and help from other players. 

    At it's beginnings, the game was simple enough and the mechanics of play straightforward enough that you didn't need much guidance to figure out how things worked. As a result, user guides weren't really needed and KX never got in the habit of providing them. 

    KX is now too cheap to hire a tech writer to create good, in-depth user guides like most other complex games have. Most of the remaining active players have been at this a long time, so we've become accustomed to dodging the trolls, haters, and flamers in the forums to persist and find some of the details we need.

    For a while, there were great fan sites that helped, but those too are dying. R.I.P. Huggys.  :(

    The cost of building wrong is very high, this is a harshly unforgiving game for making mistakes. The creative instinct that fans of strategy games have is crushed in a game so unsupportive of players doing "what if" designs. 

    Players copy purportedly successful builds because that's the only reasonable choice available to us. Very few of those builds explain the logic and reasoning behind the build - most are "this works for me, build it this way and don't ask questions". 

    This game has lots its way. 

  • d039901
    d039901
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2012 Posts: 652
    VvVvVvVvV said:
    New players? what new players? When was the last time you saw a cluster of new bases in your sector from enthusiastic younglings?

    Those of us that have been playing for a long time are too "inside the box", since the complexity has been accumulating slowly over the years. Try and imagine what it would be like to start this game from zero, faced with dozens of hulls in a lot of categories -- 95% of which are obsolete, but you won't know that without a lot of research and help from other players. 

    At it's beginnings, the game was simple enough and the mechanics of play straightforward enough that you didn't need much guidance to figure out how things worked. As a result, user guides weren't really needed and KX never got in the habit of providing them. 

    KX is now too cheap to hire a tech writer to create good, in-depth user guides like most other complex games have. Most of the remaining active players have been at this a long time, so we've become accustomed to dodging the trolls, haters, and flamers in the forums to persist and find some of the details we need.

    For a while, there were great fan sites that helped, but those too are dying. R.I.P. Huggys.  :(

    The cost of building wrong is very high, this is a harshly unforgiving game for making mistakes. The creative instinct that fans of strategy games have is crushed in a game so unsupportive of players doing "what if" designs. 

    Players copy purportedly successful builds because that's the only reasonable choice available to us. Very few of those builds explain the logic and reasoning behind the build - most are "this works for me, build it this way and don't ask questions". 

    This game has lots its way. 


    You are correct in everything you say, no doubt. To clarify, though, the "new players" I was talking about are new as compared to those of us who have been around 6 or 7 years. I'm talking about players that are like anywhere from level 90-110 at this point so perhaps "new" was the wrong word to use. How about "not old?" lol
  • carl.wear.3
    carl.wear.3
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined May 2013 Posts: 6,091
    The op has a valid point. People want to play a game. They don't want to spend most of their online time reading forums, watching vids on facebook or other social media, to find out what's going on with the game they want to play.
    I get that, but there has been a disturbing trend the last few years. It is the one where a new player gets in the game and is handed new tech. Instead of that player learning the mechanics they just build what someone tells them to do or they pull build off the TFC page. They learn nothing and anytime a monkey wrench is thrown into the machine they wilt. This isn't everyone of course, but more and more players I am running into that are well over lvl 80 still have no idea how to build on their own, drive fleets properly, or what is required to keep advancing. Yes the game can be complex. The math involved can be irritating at times. However over the years we will see posts that are created because a player has not done a simple search. Kixeye is partially to blame, but this player base also should be held responsible.
    the mechanics keep changing faster than players can learn them. No sooner do you learn how to do one set of targets and their yesterdays news as they have been replaced by another set of targets and fleet type you have to learn. 
    Ships take soo long to build and repair you don't have time to experiment and see what does and doesn't work. So its easier to just copy what someone else found out works. { Also if you try to learn and experiment yourself and get it wrong then the usual fanboi trolls shoot their mouths off about how you were "too stupid" to COPY someones build.}
    thats why the old days were better. it didn't matter if you put missiles or morts on a DNX.  They worked regardless. nowadays putting what Kix deems to be "the wrong weapon" or armour or special on a ship and that ship will suck. Alot of the game has gotten needlessly complicated and the 6 different ship classes really didn't help matters.
  • Carlos_DaPoof
    Carlos_DaPoof
    Master Tactician
    Joined Mar 2018 Posts: 2,104
    edited 27 Sep 2018, 12:08AM
    The op has a valid point. People want to play a game. They don't want to spend most of their online time reading forums, watching vids on facebook or other social media, to find out what's going on with the game they want to play.
    I get that, but there has been a disturbing trend the last few years. It is the one where a new player gets in the game and is handed new tech. Instead of that player learning the mechanics they just build what someone tells them to do or they pull build off the TFC page. They learn nothing and anytime a monkey wrench is thrown into the machine they wilt. This isn't everyone of course, but more and more players I am running into that are well over lvl 80 still have no idea how to build on their own, drive fleets properly, or what is required to keep advancing. Yes the game can be complex. The math involved can be irritating at times. However over the years we will see posts that are created because a player has not done a simple search. Kixeye is partially to blame, but this player base also should be held responsible.
    the mechanics keep changing faster than some players can learn them. No sooner do you learn how to do one set of targets and their they're yesterdays news as they have been are replaced by another set of targets 3-4 months later by the same and fleet type you have to learn. 
    Ships take soo long to build that they now provide an ample supply of tokens and repair (if you screw up and kill them) that some feel they don't have time to experiment and see what does and doesn't work because they can't do something as simple as look up certain helpful player's videos on how to build effective fleets. So its easier to just copy what someone else found out works for the standard chore targets. { Also if you try to learn and experiment yourself and get it wrong then the usual fanboi trolls shoot their mouths off about how you were "too stupid" to COPY someones build helpful, more experienced player tries to suggest a build that actually works instead of sink - I mean, what result are you looking for?.}
    thats why the old days were better. it didn't matter if you put missiles or morts on a DNX (because that ship was stronger than anything else that existed at the time - the same can be said for the Witch Doctor today)  They worked regardless. nowadays putting what Kix deems to be "the wrong weapon" or armour or special on a ship and that ship will suck. Alot of the game has gotten needlessly complicated and the 6 different ship classes really didn't help matters.(but didn't I just say that Kix is giving us the exact build to use, thereby actually reducing complication? I...um.....and really contradicting myself a lot here, aren't I?)
    You had some mistakes
    I fixed them for you
    You're welcome
    :)
    " I see no solid discussion or argument. Just whining and name calling. You pose no reason or logic to back up your position and can't articulate a reason why "
  • Loco266
    Loco266
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Apr 2013 Posts: 5,663

    @John Mair Snr said:
    Seriously Kixeye to you want us to play the game or spend
    our BP time reading the forums just to figure out how to play
    this silly game because that's what I seem to be doing.
    The game is getting too complicated for the average player I
    want to log on do a few chores smash a base or two have some fun
    I dont want to spend hours on forums trying to work
    out how most of the stuff works you are just driving
    customers away. 
    Keep the game simple and make BP great again

    The only way this is too complex for the average player is if the average player had never played another game ever. There isn't much in this game that's not self explanatory and frankly BP is one of the simplest games I play.

    Path of Exile has seven classes on the same skill tree, which contains upwards of a thousand individual nodes, and only makes up one aspect of a competent character.

    Warframe players are considered somewhat experienced MAYBE after a few hundred hours of gameplay, after which they've probably not even seen half the game's content.

    Hell, freaking Slay the Spire is more complex than BP (especially with mods) and that's a fairly straightforward card game.

    If the average BP player has trouble understanding the elements of this game then to be completely honest it sounds to me like the average player shouldn't really be gaming. It's really not hard to understand.

    I'm starting to understand Magic Bunny's perspective...
  • carl.wear.3
    carl.wear.3
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined May 2013 Posts: 6,091
    Loco266 said:

    @John Mair Snr said:
    Seriously Kixeye to you want us to play the game or spend
    our BP time reading the forums just to figure out how to play
    this silly game because that's what I seem to be doing.
    The game is getting too complicated for the average player I
    want to log on do a few chores smash a base or two have some fun
    I dont want to spend hours on forums trying to work
    out how most of the stuff works you are just driving
    customers away. 
    Keep the game simple and make BP great again

    The only way this is too complex for the average player is if the average player had never played another game ever. There isn't much in this game that's not self explanatory and frankly BP is one of the simplest games I play.

    Path of Exile has seven classes on the same skill tree, which contains upwards of a thousand individual nodes, and only makes up one aspect of a competent character.

    Warframe players are considered somewhat experienced MAYBE after a few hundred hours of gameplay, after which they've probably not even seen half the game's content.

    Hell, freaking Slay the Spire is more complex than BP (especially with mods) and that's a fairly straightforward card game.

    If the average BP player has trouble understanding the elements of this game then to be completely honest it sounds to me like the average player shouldn't really be gaming. It's really not hard to understand.

    BP is not simple. What doesn't help are misleading, confusing and hidden stats compounded by the fact that info maybe given out once and then its assumed its 'common knowledge" within the player community. The number of times it has to be explained to new players that the damage values are really HALF of whats actually displayed is one example. Another example is a recent TLC that had in it the 85 and 83 nav relay targets and for the TLC Kixeye is saying recommended fleets are the MANTICORE. There have been numerous posts from players complaining about how the manticore does NOT preform as well in the 83 and 85 as the phoenix / skyfire fleets and the mods have confirmed in those posts that they are NOT designed for the manticore and yet in a TLC with the SAME targets thats whats recommended.
  • Loco266
    Loco266
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Apr 2013 Posts: 5,663

    Misleading information isn't the same thing as complication. These are two completely different things, and I do agree misinformation is a significant problem within the game.

    Halved damage values haven't even got a relevant impact on anything. I don't care how much damage something does, that tells me nothing useful. The real question is "what has the highest DPS?"and halved damage values have no impact whatsoever on that because it applies to everything. The only use i have for the damage number is its role in my DPS calcs (which are incredibly simple, elementary schoolers learn the same formula applied to distance covered instead of DPS)

    You lot think you need to understand every little detail in order for the game to make sense and that's outright false.

    If you want another example of a truly complex game look at any fighting game. I play tournament level Smash Bros, I main Yoshi with no secondaries. Despite only playing one character I have to know how to play 41 matchups, I have to keep a general idea of the frame data for every move on every character and i have to constantly adjust to rapidly changing situations. I don't have a second to think. I might have five frames, or 1/12 of a second. I might have even less.

    THAT is complex. Chess is complex. BP primarily comes down to "what makes my numbers the biggest using the tech I have and how can I drive to minimize damage taken?" There is some real complexity, but it's in the strategy, not in the numbers. The math in this game is fifth grade level at the most.

    I'm starting to understand Magic Bunny's perspective...
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