Dark Wing CIC

  • TRUCULENT2
    TRUCULENT2
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Mar 2014 Posts: 2,844
    I apologize in advance for being "stunned", but I fail to see where this CIC helps. I invested 10 mil of my hard-won points for the CIC and refitted 3 of 4 hulls using tokens. FWIW, the refit was 1 day 19 hrs with a lvl 30 obj base. 
    I tried the 4 ships in a 65 with the Savage Kodi and had to retreat as the Mantis were going nowhere. I removed the Savage and went back in the 65 with the 4 ships. Damage received was 17-18 min. I received the Same damage before the refit using the Savage. One major item is the reduction of Attack Damage. Before the refit, a Manti was doing 119K damage and with the new CIC the damage is 98K. There is also a slight reduction per hull in Pen Def and Corr Def - 91 to 89 and 95 to 92.

    So, the bottom line for me is that I see No Major Difference with or without the CIC. My original build is posted above. If I was able to use the Kodi I would expect to see that defense factor in.

    I'm going to do a 102 later today and will see what that does.

    As always, thanks for any advice/thoughts.


    Edit: I did a couple of 102's with the 4 hull fleet and did see a noticeable difference in damage taken ( at least an hour less ). So I guess It Does Work. I won't need the Kodi next raid as I'll have the Manti flag. And I will also have the 4th armor on all the hulls. Will see how things perform in a month. Am I correct in assuming that you can only have 3 of these CIC in a fleet?



    The savage kodi caused you problems because the Dark Wing CIC matches the fleet speed with the slowest ship - your kodi. Ive heard the manticores are performing poorly in the 60s in general.

    You will also see a big difference getting that 4th armor fitted. 
    I have a hard time believing that we are dealing with a company that is brilliantly scamming us AND entirely incompetent. 

    This is a private company in a capitalist market trying to make money - your money. Give it to them, or don't - but don't fault them for trying. 
  • TRUCULENT2
    TRUCULENT2
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Mar 2014 Posts: 2,844
    Laredo said:
    hitman said:
    Laredo said:
    My damage was cut by about 60% after adding them.  Also an added benefit is if you want to run a GM crew, the fleet stays stacked since the darkwing matches the fleet speed to the slowest ship. 
    Hi Laredo, are you using missile or scatter manti's?

    thanks
    I'm using a missile fleet but folks in my alli with scatter build are also seeing much less damage.
    where lol , i got 1 hr on auto a 61 with 3 mantis and also did the same with gus skys-skys build and same results, too expensive i would say around 6 to 10 coins per 60s sets , too expensive for a game , but if they make money with the raid good for kix, if they dont make money , they shoulld listen to players struggling on this raid , having the supposly raid hull, also pass to them , giving us 2 more escalations to mantis , so we need 2 more refits after dont with the first build , so please any info would be nice to try to play next raid , for now 3 scatters mantis cant even make an auto 61 for cheap , expensive and too much damage for my scatter mantis , only got the new missiles , maybre i refit all my mantis for missiles to be able to play next raid , we dont asking too much , just leave us open the 60s set at least something to play the raids , for now closed system , check how many players playing raid , so you know i am talking a real game problem , just enter game and spend 30 min , no one playing raid 
    Did you refit to add the Dark Wing CIC to your fleet, or are you just trying to hijack a thread to complain about your raid? 


    dont know what dark cic , i stayed from original mantis release and cant do nothing lol , so really dont know whats the dark wing is . second i am not complaning , just passing the info so hope mods pass it to kixeye , but its a baby brain to click play game and see its a dessert  , just saying if wants to players to play raid . at least the 60s should be released from heavy coiners and let us grind for pts 
    "Don't know what dark cic"? And yet here you are spamming a thread titled "Dark Wing CIC"... you are complaining, or at least in search for pity. Just because you see a mod comment on a thread doesn't mean its your opportunity to chime in with your troubles on a different subject. 

    The fact that you dont know what a Dark Wing CIC is, might explain why you're having trouble in the raid. 

    FYI - manticores suck in 60s, try another target and if that doesn't work, try another build
    I have a hard time believing that we are dealing with a company that is brilliantly scamming us AND entirely incompetent. 

    This is a private company in a capitalist market trying to make money - your money. Give it to them, or don't - but don't fault them for trying. 
  • alex.stanham
    alex.stanham
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 828
    Laredo said:
    hitman said:
    Laredo said:
    My damage was cut by about 60% after adding them.  Also an added benefit is if you want to run a GM crew, the fleet stays stacked since the darkwing matches the fleet speed to the slowest ship. 
    Hi Laredo, are you using missile or scatter manti's?

    thanks
    I'm using a missile fleet but folks in my alli with scatter build are also seeing much less damage.
    where lol , i got 1 hr on auto a 61 with 3 mantis and also did the same with gus skys-skys build and same results, too expensive i would say around 6 to 10 coins per 60s sets , too expensive for a game , but if they make money with the raid good for kix, if they dont make money , they shoulld listen to players struggling on this raid , having the supposly raid hull, also pass to them , giving us 2 more escalations to mantis , so we need 2 more refits after dont with the first build , so please any info would be nice to try to play next raid , for now 3 scatters mantis cant even make an auto 61 for cheap , expensive and too much damage for my scatter mantis , only got the new missiles , maybre i refit all my mantis for missiles to be able to play next raid , we dont asking too much , just leave us open the 60s set at least something to play the raids , for now closed system , check how many players playing raid , so you know i am talking a real game problem , just enter game and spend 30 min , no one playing raid 
    Did you refit to add the Dark Wing CIC to your fleet, or are you just trying to hijack a thread to complain about your raid? 


    dont know what dark cic , i stayed from original mantis release and cant do nothing lol , so really dont know whats the dark wing is . second i am not complaning , just passing the info so hope mods pass it to kixeye , but its a baby brain to click play game and see its a dessert  , just saying if wants to players to play raid . at least the 60s should be released from heavy coiners and let us grind for pts 
    "Don't know what dark cic"? And yet here you are spamming a thread titled "Dark Wing CIC"... you are complaining, or at least in search for pity. Just because you see a mod comment on a thread doesn't mean its your opportunity to chime in with your troubles on a different subject. 

    The fact that you dont know what a Dark Wing CIC is, might explain why you're having trouble in the raid. 

    FYI - manticores suck in 60s, try another target and if that doesn't work, try another build
    not my fault if we have to be guessing all , better info from game developer should help with that 
    DarKCloWn
  • TRUCULENT2
    TRUCULENT2
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Mar 2014 Posts: 2,844
    Laredo said:
    hitman said:
    Laredo said:
    My damage was cut by about 60% after adding them.  Also an added benefit is if you want to run a GM crew, the fleet stays stacked since the darkwing matches the fleet speed to the slowest ship. 
    Hi Laredo, are you using missile or scatter manti's?

    thanks
    I'm using a missile fleet but folks in my alli with scatter build are also seeing much less damage.
    where lol , i got 1 hr on auto a 61 with 3 mantis and also did the same with gus skys-skys build and same results, too expensive i would say around 6 to 10 coins per 60s sets , too expensive for a game , but if they make money with the raid good for kix, if they dont make money , they shoulld listen to players struggling on this raid , having the supposly raid hull, also pass to them , giving us 2 more escalations to mantis , so we need 2 more refits after dont with the first build , so please any info would be nice to try to play next raid , for now 3 scatters mantis cant even make an auto 61 for cheap , expensive and too much damage for my scatter mantis , only got the new missiles , maybre i refit all my mantis for missiles to be able to play next raid , we dont asking too much , just leave us open the 60s set at least something to play the raids , for now closed system , check how many players playing raid , so you know i am talking a real game problem , just enter game and spend 30 min , no one playing raid 
    Did you refit to add the Dark Wing CIC to your fleet, or are you just trying to hijack a thread to complain about your raid? 


    dont know what dark cic , i stayed from original mantis release and cant do nothing lol , so really dont know whats the dark wing is . second i am not complaning , just passing the info so hope mods pass it to kixeye , but its a baby brain to click play game and see its a dessert  , just saying if wants to players to play raid . at least the 60s should be released from heavy coiners and let us grind for pts 
    "Don't know what dark cic"? And yet here you are spamming a thread titled "Dark Wing CIC"... you are complaining, or at least in search for pity. Just because you see a mod comment on a thread doesn't mean its your opportunity to chime in with your troubles on a different subject. 

    The fact that you dont know what a Dark Wing CIC is, might explain why you're having trouble in the raid. 

    FYI - manticores suck in 60s, try another target and if that doesn't work, try another build
    not my fault if we have to be guessing all , better info from game developer should help with that 
    guessing? I think you are getting lost with all the spamming you are doing in multiple threads and you have no idea what this thread is about. Its clear you're are having problems, but there is a discussion thread for that - posting your problem in every thread you see isn't the best way to get help.

    This thread is discussing the benefit of the Dark Wing CIC - a prize in this month's raid. Not about how your partial built manticores can't do 60s. 
    I have a hard time believing that we are dealing with a company that is brilliantly scamming us AND entirely incompetent. 

    This is a private company in a capitalist market trying to make money - your money. Give it to them, or don't - but don't fault them for trying. 
  • THE-RainMaker
    THE-RainMaker
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Oct 2013 Posts: 181
    The description says it affects all Manticore in fleet yet the Duplicate Aura count is 3. Is this confusing to anyone else or am I missing something?  I am thinking of getting this on a boat ASAP but if I use it with a fleet of 5 will my fleet perform really weirdly?
    LOL

    Come on man, dont be one of 253's complaining cast memebers.... tis undignified
    Base Name: RainMaker
    Location: Sector 253, Central Relay Tower
  • alex.stanham
    alex.stanham
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 828
    Laredo said:
    hitman said:
    Laredo said:
    My damage was cut by about 60% after adding them.  Also an added benefit is if you want to run a GM crew, the fleet stays stacked since the darkwing matches the fleet speed to the slowest ship. 
    Hi Laredo, are you using missile or scatter manti's?

    thanks
    I'm using a missile fleet but folks in my alli with scatter build are also seeing much less damage.
    where lol , i got 1 hr on auto a 61 with 3 mantis and also did the same with gus skys-skys build and same results, too expensive i would say around 6 to 10 coins per 60s sets , too expensive for a game , but if they make money with the raid good for kix, if they dont make money , they shoulld listen to players struggling on this raid , having the supposly raid hull, also pass to them , giving us 2 more escalations to mantis , so we need 2 more refits after dont with the first build , so please any info would be nice to try to play next raid , for now 3 scatters mantis cant even make an auto 61 for cheap , expensive and too much damage for my scatter mantis , only got the new missiles , maybre i refit all my mantis for missiles to be able to play next raid , we dont asking too much , just leave us open the 60s set at least something to play the raids , for now closed system , check how many players playing raid , so you know i am talking a real game problem , just enter game and spend 30 min , no one playing raid 
    Did you refit to add the Dark Wing CIC to your fleet, or are you just trying to hijack a thread to complain about your raid? 


    dont know what dark cic , i stayed from original mantis release and cant do nothing lol , so really dont know whats the dark wing is . second i am not complaning , just passing the info so hope mods pass it to kixeye , but its a baby brain to click play game and see its a dessert  , just saying if wants to players to play raid . at least the 60s should be released from heavy coiners and let us grind for pts 
    "Don't know what dark cic"? And yet here you are spamming a thread titled "Dark Wing CIC"... you are complaining, or at least in search for pity. Just because you see a mod comment on a thread doesn't mean its your opportunity to chime in with your troubles on a different subject. 

    The fact that you dont know what a Dark Wing CIC is, might explain why you're having trouble in the raid. 

    FYI - manticores suck in 60s, try another target and if that doesn't work, try another build
    not my fault if we have to be guessing all , better info from game developer should help with that 
    guessing? I think you are getting lost with all the spamming you are doing in multiple threads and you have no idea what this thread is about. Its clear you're are having problems, but there is a discussion thread for that - posting your problem in every thread you see isn't the best way to get help.

    This thread is discussing the benefit of the Dark Wing CIC - a prize in this month's raid. Not about how your partial built manticores can't do 60s. 
    never seen a positive post from forums , the only thing we hear is how bad we build our fleets and its all out fault we cant do raid , even we got like me manticores , scatter , special , armor , cic  , etc , from last raid cycle to be able to play next raid cycle , then after that was release 2 or 3 excalations , we cant follow the speed of things released and we dont know what they are , so we playing blind, so really , never seen nothing positive from forums 
    DarKCloWn
  • PhreddDevlin
    PhreddDevlin
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined May 2012 Posts: 401

    The savage kodi caused you problems because the Dark Wing CIC matches the fleet speed with the slowest ship - your kodi. Ive heard the manticores are performing poorly in the 60s in general.

    You will also see a big difference getting that 4th armor fitted. 
    Sorry, I should have indicated that I knew the "slow ship" effect. I guess I was hoping for a different result???

    Thanks to all for your input.
  • Laredo
    Laredo
    Moderator
    Joined Dec 2011 Posts: 18,523
    I apologize in advance for being "stunned", but I fail to see where this CIC helps. I invested 10 mil of my hard-won points for the CIC and refitted 3 of 4 hulls using tokens. FWIW, the refit was 1 day 19 hrs with a lvl 30 obj base. 
    I tried the 4 ships in a 65 with the Savage Kodi and had to retreat as the Mantis were going nowhere. I removed the Savage and went back in the 65 with the 4 ships. Damage received was 17-18 min. I received the Same damage before the refit using the Savage. One major item is the reduction of Attack Damage. Before the refit, a Manti was doing 119K damage and with the new CIC the damage is 98K. There is also a slight reduction per hull in Pen Def and Corr Def - 91 to 89 and 95 to 92.

    So, the bottom line for me is that I see No Major Difference with or without the CIC. My original build is posted above. If I was able to use the Kodi I would expect to see that defense factor in.

    I'm going to do a 102 later today and will see what that does.

    As always, thanks for any advice/thoughts.


    Edit: I did a couple of 102's with the 4 hull fleet and did see a noticeable difference in damage taken ( at least an hour less ). So I guess It Does Work. I won't need the Kodi next raid as I'll have the Manti flag. And I will also have the 4th armor on all the hulls. Will see how things perform in a month. Am I correct in assuming that you can only have 3 of these CIC in a fleet?



    The savage kodi caused you problems because the Dark Wing CIC matches the fleet speed with the slowest ship - your kodi. Ive heard the manticores are performing poorly in the 60s in general.

    You will also see a big difference getting that 4th armor fitted. 
    The 60s are tuned for Skys and Phoenix since they have charged armor.

    The 80s and 100s are tuned for defenseive armors not pool armors.
  • Shapu_the_farm
    Shapu_the_farm
    Master Tactician
    Joined Sep 2015 Posts: 2,055
    Manticores with charged do OK in the 60s, but not great.  About 30 minutes per target for a fleet of 4 with one each of the C1-M and D5-CoM.
  • jeff.lahaie.9
    jeff.lahaie.9
    Potential Threat
    Joined Sep 2014 Posts: 75
    From the way I read the blueprints, the missile fleets will likely have a better benefit. Savage CIC gives 30% pen defense and 60% cor defense. Scorpion CIC gives none. DW gives 15% pen and 40% cor. Even 1 DW would likely give missile fleets less damage. 2 DW would be needed to offset the Savage bonus giving 30% pen def and 30% cor def  bonus for totals of 45% pen and 75% cor. Keep in mind that the Savage also has 30% damage bonus that gets replaced by a 15% reload per DW. I'm guessing that having all 3 DW on a scatter fleet might reduce damage by up to 30%.

    I haven't decided if I want to spend the points on the tokens to do that yet. I would love to hear confirmation of the damage reduction seen by scatter fleets when using all 3 DW CICs.
  • Joshua Philp
    Joshua Philp
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 703
    From the way I read the blueprints, the missile fleets will likely have a better benefit. Savage CIC gives 30% pen defense and 60% cor defense. Scorpion CIC gives none. DW gives 15% pen and 40% cor. Even 1 DW would likely give missile fleets less damage. 2 DW would be needed to offset the Savage bonus giving 30% pen def and 30% cor def  bonus for totals of 45% pen and 75% cor. Keep in mind that the Savage also has 30% damage bonus that gets replaced by a 15% reload per DW. I'm guessing that having all 3 DW on a scatter fleet might reduce damage by up to 30%.

    I haven't decided if I want to spend the points on the tokens to do that yet. I would love to hear confirmation of the damage reduction seen by scatter fleets when using all 3 DW CICs.
    I can confirm that there is a noticeable reduction in repair time after fitting 3 DWs to my scatter fleet.
  • Firefighter4
    Firefighter4
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 180
    edited 17 Jun 2018, 9:39PM
    .....
  • InSidious_66
    InSidious_66
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Dec 2014 Posts: 555
    edited 17 Jun 2018, 9:42PM
    Laredo said:
    The 60s are tuned for Skys and Phoenix since they have charged armor.

    The 80s and 100s are tuned for defenseive armors not pool armors.
    My Skyfire have the D5-COM*4 (18% pen and cor) each.  You say charged would work better?
  • Shapu_the_farm
    Shapu_the_farm
    Master Tactician
    Joined Sep 2015 Posts: 2,055
    Laredo said:
    The 60s are tuned for Skys and Phoenix since they have charged armor.

    The 80s and 100s are tuned for defenseive armors not pool armors.
    My Skyfire have the D5-COM*4 (18% pen and cor) each.  You say charged would work better?
    In the T5 and T6 sets, yes.  In the T7 set and S set, no, because those do enough damage that skyfires still hurt.

    That said, you probably are having success with your skyfires in the T7 set, so....
  • chopsy
    chopsy
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined May 2011 Posts: 135
    Laredo said:
    I apologize in advance for being "stunned", but I fail to see where this CIC helps. I invested 10 mil of my hard-won points for the CIC and refitted 3 of 4 hulls using tokens. FWIW, the refit was 1 day 19 hrs with a lvl 30 obj base. 
    I tried the 4 ships in a 65 with the Savage Kodi and had to retreat as the Mantis were going nowhere. I removed the Savage and went back in the 65 with the 4 ships. Damage received was 17-18 min. I received the Same damage before the refit using the Savage. One major item is the reduction of Attack Damage. Before the refit, a Manti was doing 119K damage and with the new CIC the damage is 98K. There is also a slight reduction per hull in Pen Def and Corr Def - 91 to 89 and 95 to 92.

    So, the bottom line for me is that I see No Major Difference with or without the CIC. My original build is posted above. If I was able to use the Kodi I would expect to see that defense factor in.

    I'm going to do a 102 later today and will see what that does.

    As always, thanks for any advice/thoughts.


    Edit: I did a couple of 102's with the 4 hull fleet and did see a noticeable difference in damage taken ( at least an hour less ). So I guess It Does Work. I won't need the Kodi next raid as I'll have the Manti flag. And I will also have the 4th armor on all the hulls. Will see how things perform in a month. Am I correct in assuming that you can only have 3 of these CIC in a fleet?



    The savage kodi caused you problems because the Dark Wing CIC matches the fleet speed with the slowest ship - your kodi. Ive heard the manticores are performing poorly in the 60s in general.

    You will also see a big difference getting that 4th armor fitted. 
    The 60s are tuned for Skys and Phoenix since they have charged armor.

    The 80s and 100s are tuned for defenseive armors not pool armors.
    And by "tuned" he means guaranteed to do damage to your ships.  
    where did the fun go?  would you mind bringing it back?  
  • InSidious_66
    InSidious_66
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Dec 2014 Posts: 555
    Laredo said:
    The 60s are tuned for Skys and Phoenix since they have charged armor.

    The 80s and 100s are tuned for defenseive armors not pool armors.
    My Skyfire have the D5-COM*4 (18% pen and cor) each.  You say charged would work better?
    In the T5 and T6 sets, yes.  In the T7 set and S set, no, because those do enough damage that skyfires still hurt.

    That said, you probably are having success with your skyfires in the T7 set, so....
    I can do a single 81. They die in a single 85. Haven't tried an 83. So, not really...
    I can do 41s under 5min repair though.


    That said, i may have gone overboard with CMs.
    3 have a Phal4 each, and CM ship has 4 Sprints, 1 Gale3 (for doing flts and various TLCs) and 2 Phal4s.


  • TRUCULENT2
    TRUCULENT2
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Mar 2014 Posts: 2,844
    Laredo said:
    The 60s are tuned for Skys and Phoenix since they have charged armor.

    The 80s and 100s are tuned for defenseive armors not pool armors.
    My Skyfire have the D5-COM*4 (18% pen and cor) each.  You say charged would work better?
    In the T5 and T6 sets, yes.  In the T7 set and S set, no, because those do enough damage that skyfires still hurt.

    That said, you probably are having success with your skyfires in the T7 set, so....
    I can do a single 81. They die in a single 85. Haven't tried an 83. So, not really...
    I can do 41s under 5min repair though.


    That said, i may have gone overboard with CMs.
    3 have a Phal4 each, and CM ship has 4 Sprints, 1 Gale3 (for doing flts and various TLCs) and 2 Phal4s.


    Lose the phals. I started the raid with 1 phal4 and 1 sprint on each manticore, in a fleet of 5. I was shooting down about 60% of the exe missiles. I removed the phals and now the only cm in the fleet is 5 sprints and they shoot down everything from the turret. 

    There is something funky when it comes to mixing cm. Having anti-missile redundancy doesn't provide the extra coverage you'd assume.

    *I have not tried the 80s, this is just my experience in the 100 and 102.
    I have a hard time believing that we are dealing with a company that is brilliantly scamming us AND entirely incompetent. 

    This is a private company in a capitalist market trying to make money - your money. Give it to them, or don't - but don't fault them for trying. 
  • Ray_P
    Ray_P
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Aug 2012 Posts: 2,526
    I saw a 1hr 25 min improvement with a 3 Darkwing refit on three regular scat Mants.  This is after the refit hitting both a 100 and 102
    Ray_P   


    Winner of Hellhound, Grimshine, Nighthawk,  V2 C/H, JuggX, Mastedon, Interceptor, Atlas, Viper, Enforcer, Nash, Reaper, Spectre, Hellstrike, Vindicator, Triton, Stingray, Interdictor, Hurricane, MCX, Goliath, Barracuda, Strike Cruiser, Mercury, Mauler, Super Fortress, Battleship, Battle Cruiser,  HHA,  HHB 

    Remember at the end of the day it's a game,  it's not your life. 

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  • Jason Ma
    Jason Ma
    Potential Threat
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 81

    @Ray_P said:
    I saw a 1hr 25 min improvement with a 3 Darkwing refit on three regular scat Mants.  This is after the refit hitting both a 100 and 102

    Same. I added 3 DW CICs and my time went from 6hrs to 3hrs for a tier 8 set. My ships weren't fully equipped with all weapon slots and I don't have the makara, but I focused on defense and I'm doing better than some people with full complete fleets. So I'm happy.

  • BANZAI_Bill
    BANZAI_Bill
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Nov 2014 Posts: 633
    Here is my issue with this whole cic deal.... We had way too many forced fleets for the past raids to begin with.

    Now we're being forced to build multiple sets of the same fleet. 

    That's worse than before... Not to mention as horrible as these manticores are compared to the past fleets... I don't even think people will complain when they go the way of last cycles buc and hydras... Which are basically obsolete way before when kix said they would.

    It's like bait and switch is the only business strategy that kixeye has.
  • TRUCULENT2
    TRUCULENT2
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Mar 2014 Posts: 2,844
    Here is my issue with this whole cic deal.... We had way too many forced fleets for the past raids to begin with.

    Now we're being forced to build multiple sets of the same fleet. 

    That's worse than before... Not to mention as horrible as these manticores are compared to the past fleets... I don't even think people will complain when they go the way of last cycles buc and hydras... Which are basically obsolete way before when kix said they would.

    It's like bait and switch is the only business strategy that kixeye has.
    Why do you think you need multiple fleets? There hasn't been a single player claiming they've needed both fleets. Some are using scatter, some are using missiles, and plenty are having success regardless of which one they chose. The manticore is not horrible... there are horrible builds, and horrible drivers - blaming the manticore for your struggles is like blaming a hammer for missing the nail. 
    I have a hard time believing that we are dealing with a company that is brilliantly scamming us AND entirely incompetent. 

    This is a private company in a capitalist market trying to make money - your money. Give it to them, or don't - but don't fault them for trying. 
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