My **** you have a **** **** mental block! THIS WEAPON IS END GAME FOR PEOPLE WITHOUT ACCESS TO ANYTHING OVER DC!!! NO XENO!!
NO XENO!!
My logic is bullshit to you because yours is from uranus! You are not mid tier if you have xeno!!! That counts for both hulls and weapons!
If you want to fight other people with DC fleets (NO XENO!!!) then infernal is better, and will give you the edge over them, for an increased fit time.
You can still be mid level and have xeno gear. Yes, higher quality gear should take a little longer to fit than inferior tech, but why should infernal be 12x longer fit time than comparable non infernal gear. Also, it doesnt matter if its top of the line for its tier, its not end game tech, so why would it take EVEN LONGER than actual end game material lol.
Answer is because its unbalanced, just like mk credit crafting times and prices, and repairs and and and. Remember, just because something has been that way a long time, and we've been forced to deal with it a long time, does not make it okay.
This whole thread is just not getting it. Infernal is an optional tech. Nightmare is completely correct, slap some nova on it and move on. You don't need infernal, but it makes you the top of the tier if you equip it.
You can make do without xeno versions of tier 6 weapons as well. But you need them more than you need infernal wave, so the refit difference is less. I can't believe this is still on so many people's nerves - it's been like this for almost 2 years now?
You can still be mid level and have xeno gear. Yes, higher quality gear should take a little longer to fit than inferior tech, but why should infernal be 12x longer fit time than comparable non infernal gear. Also, it doesnt matter if its top of the line for its tier, its not end game tech, so why would it take EVEN LONGER than actual end game material lol.
Answer is because its unbalanced, just like mk credit crafting times and prices, and repairs and and and. Remember, just because something has been that way a long time, and we've been forced to deal with it a long time, does not make it okay.
It is the mid-tier end game fitting for DC fleets, and it is equivalent to xeno weapons for Xeno ships instead of weapons like vector and mannifold. If you want better weapons, suffer longer refit time. it's the way it's always been.
Kix themselves have said end game is considered having green **** because there is a massive rift between DC and xeno. So having any xeno hulls makes you end game. I did not say mid-level, I said mid game. Infernal is 4X longer than nova, which is almost comparable in dps. Just like how shatter takes less than a day and xeno shatter is over 2 days, this needs to be longer. This increase is not because it's "end game tech," it's because it's top tier and it gives people an advantage over others. Top tier anything will take longer to fit. Maybe 4 days is too long, but it's trivial and kix won't bother looking at that particular time and reduce it.
Most of the things in this game are unbalanced. Kixeye's road plan should address this (in 5 months or so hahaha) but no where do they say reducing any kind of times. But you never know ...
My **** you have a **** **** mental block! THIS WEAPON IS END GAME FOR PEOPLE WITHOUT ACCESS TO ANYTHING OVER DC!!! NO XENO!!
NO XENO!!
My logic is bullshit to you because yours is from uranus! You are not mid tier if you have xeno!!! That counts for both hulls and weapons!
If you want to fight other people with DC fleets (NO XENO!!!) then infernal is better, and will give you the edge over them, for an increased fit time.
I'm not sure you know what end game means. By your reasoning pulse ray is end game until you get echo ray so everything has to have a 3 day refit time. You make no sense whatsoever.
I get what SteelSteve is saying... if DC is your best ships why not use some infernal weapons? Infernal Wave and Infernal Gatling pretty much outclass the rest of tier 5 and below, which is why people built ships with them prior to T6. Plus, if you plan things right there are DC build tokens available that could be used to lower the build time. Or plan the fitting around refit discount periods. I'm tempted to build another iWave Tornado just because I love frigates and there have been no new ones lately.
@dom.friant said:
I get what SteelSteve is saying... if DC is your best ships why not use some infernal weapons? Infernal Wave and Infernal Gatling pretty much outclass the rest of tier 5 and below, which is why people built ships with them prior to T6. Plus, if you plan things right there are DC build tokens available that could be used to lower the build time. Or plan the fitting around refit discount periods. I'm tempted to build another iWave Tornado just because I love frigates and there have been no new ones lately.
This logic fits a time where t6 doesnt, i get 3days if its the final tier, NOT when its a tier below a tier whos weapons are MORE POWERFUL and TAKE LESS TIME TO REFIT. You guys clearly dont see the **** point, infernal is worthless at 3 days time, xeno tier weapons take less time to build for basically double the damage, there is no point in getting infernal NOW THAT ALIEN STRIKES EXIST.
@SteelSteve said:
My **** you have a **** **** mental block! THIS WEAPON IS END GAME FOR PEOPLE WITHOUT ACCESS TO ANYTHING OVER DC!!! NO XENO!!
NO XENO!!
My logic is bullshit to you because yours is from uranus! You are not mid tier if you have xeno!!! That counts for both hulls and weapons!
If you want to fight other people with DC fleets (NO XENO!!!) then infernal is better, and will give you the edge over them, for an increased fit time.
You really think people now are going to stick to dc after alien strikes exist? Stfu with that logic dude. Infernal weapons dont deserve 3 **** days build time when the clearly more powerful tier takes less time, i dont give a **** if infernal is "end mid tier" mid tier is not a tier where 3 day **** refits should exist, when high tier and end tier take LESS TIME. Stfu will you? Your logic makes no sense. Your literally saying a weaker class of weapons should take more time than the next tiers "end tier weapons"
@dom.friant said:
I get what SteelSteve is saying... if DC is your best ships why not use some infernal weapons? Infernal Wave and Infernal Gatling pretty much outclass the rest of tier 5 and below, which is why people built ships with them prior to T6. Plus, if you plan things right there are DC build tokens available that could be used to lower the build time. Or plan the fitting around refit discount periods. I'm tempted to build another iWave Tornado just because I love frigates and there have been no new ones lately.
This logic fits a time where t6 doesnt, i get 3days if its the final tier, NOT when its a tier below a tier whos weapons are MORE POWERFUL and TAKE LESS TIME TO REFIT. You guys clearly dont see the **** point, infernal is worthless at 3 days time, xeno tier weapons take less time to build for basically double the damage, there is no point in getting infernal NOW THAT ALIEN STRIKES EXIST.
You're assuming that alien strike will allow people to move from T5 to T6... based on the targets that isn't looking so promising, but we'll see how it pans out. Sure I agree once you've moved to T6+ it doesn't make sense to use those weapons, but then again, once you move to T6 building anything else doesn't make much sense anyway.
I guess it depends on one's priories. If you're just trying to move from T5 to T6 as fast as possible, no it might not make sense to use them. If you're trying to build the best DC ships while you're at T5, infernal weapons may make sense, though I don't know I'd go exclusive on that due to build times. But having one or two infernal ships mixed a fleet in might actually help a player move from T5 to T6 as those are going to have the highest dps available for T5.
I still think 3 days is to much, its weaker than the tier above it which takes less time, that logic doesnt work in this game, progression should be "the stronger it is the longer it takes to build" but not to an extent like 3 day long dc infernal weapons, which deal damage similar to heavy weapons. You should feel accomplished that you got a powerful weapon, but you shouldn't be shot down by the fact the next tier is faster, and in this current time, that's what it's going to look like. Just because its "end mid tier" does not give it the right to take longer than weapons more powerful than it, i dont care about the next tier being xeno or not, infernal IS dcs xeno weapons, and yet they have the same damage as, but take longer to build than a heavy weapon
Well, I never liked the build time to begin with, but it was what it was at the time. I suspect an issue with asking for a reduction on the infernal weapons is they'd probably have to look at all the weapon build times, so we'd probably be looking at another re-balance. I could be wrong. But that was the last time I remember any changes to build times, but it was across the board, not just for a select few things.
Well, I never liked the build time to begin with, but it was what it was at the time. I suspect an issue with asking for a reduction on the infernal weapons is they'd probably have to look at all the weapon build times, so we'd probably be looking at another re-balance. I could be wrong. But that was the last time I remember any changes to build times, but it was across the board, not just for a select few things.
They could quite easily just look at the fit times for the 3 Infernal weapons. These 3 weapons have far far longer fit times than any other weapon below Tier 6 (longer than all T6 weapons even), they are way outside the curve, and it would make sense for Kixeye to adjust only these to be more in line with all the other weapons.
Well, I never liked the build time to begin with, but it was what it was at the time. I suspect an issue with asking for a reduction on the infernal weapons is they'd probably have to look at all the weapon build times, so we'd probably be looking at another re-balance. I could be wrong. But that was the last time I remember any changes to build times, but it was across the board, not just for a select few things.
Theyve reduced build/refit times on a select few before, they can certainly do it again, they just wont because they are brain dead and dont realize that reduced times results in more players, they can cut the times down by 75% and regain millions of players
Very well it adds nothing then. I have misspoken at least twice now in my responses, but I find it hard to explain the difference between end-game and end-tier. TinyLadLen said: SteelSteve said:
THIS WEAPON IS END GAME FOR PEOPLE WITHOUT ACCESS TO ANYTHING OVER DC!!! NO XENO!!
NO XENO!!
I'm not sure you know what end game means. By your reasoning pulse ray is end game until you get echo ray so everything has to have a 3 day refit time. You make no sense whatsoever.
Yes I misspoke and what I meant to say was that infernal is meant to get you as strong as possible (end tier) while staying in that tier. This is important because kix has talked about the massive rift between DC and xeno and how hard it is to get. Alien strikes do nothing to help people get punishers because they have ancient targets.
Anyone who cannot understand what I'm saying, take a fleet of DC ships and hit any target during this alien strike. Pick the lowest one possible. Look at your damage in the end, and then calculate what you will need to get a punisher. Or give me the numbers and I'll calculate it for you.
It is incredibly hard to use ships that aren't xeno in these events that offer xeno - thus the rift that exists between the two. This is because those of us that have xeno and axis have become so powerful with them, that the events were scaled up to meet our power, and anyone who didn't get them at that time now faces a massive power gap (where the events started moving up without them).
Responses to several people above are very simple. If you own a single xeno ship, of any kind, you are no longer a mid-tier player. At that point, infernal doesn't make any sense to build. You literally cannot sit there and argue with the use of infernal by saying xeno is better because you can say that with anything. It's not a valid argument. Infernal gives people who have no xeno a leg up in that tier. IN THAT TIER. Since xeno isn't in that tier, you can't compare it to xeno. Infernal is essentially the xeno OF THAT TIER.
You can tell the difference between the two tiers because of the massive rift. Just like the rift between people who have some battleships and the ragnarok and people who don't have it. It literally gives you the option to play new events when you finally get the item.
Basically anyone who finds it hard to understand needs to take a DC fleet and hit the lowest alien fleet they can find - since the events are continually scaled to end game players, DC can't survive anymore. Nightmare Deathlock said:
I still think 3 days is to much, its weaker than the tier above it which takes less time, that logic doesnt work in this game, progression should be "the stronger it is the longer it takes to build" but not to an extent like 3 day long dc infernal weapons, which deal damage similar to heavy weapons. You should feel accomplished that you got a powerful weapon, but you shouldn't be shot down by the fact the next tier is faster, and in this current time, that's what it's going to look like. Just because its "end mid tier" does not give it the right to take longer than weapons more powerful than it, i dont care about the next tier being xeno or not, infernal IS dcs xeno weapons, and yet they have the same damage as, but take longer to build than a heavy weapon
Yeah I'm ok with saying the actual time is too long (as I said before), but it can't be in line with heavy weapons, because it would defeat the purpose of saying "the stronger the weapon, the longer the build time." By your logic, we either need to increase xeno build times to be able to fit an increase in every stronger weapon out there (because some stronger weapons have less refit time) or we need to crush the entire low tier structure into hour build times to keep xeno the same way. At least the way it is, people already know that when moving up a tier, they should expect 2-4 day refit times when looking at the most powerful weapon. Wouldn't you be discouraged to move up if you knew that the new ship and weapons would always take longer to build than the one you are using? Why would you want to move up if it was like that?
I want all build times reduced (as unlikely as that is) dc infernal weapons are powerful and certainly deserve a long build time, just not longer than the weapons a tier above it, and infernal is DC only... So making it a similar time to heavy weapons really isnt changing much, at xeno your generally aiming for the xeno or normal versions more often than the heavy versions anyway (even though the heavies are still fairly useful)...
This whole thread is just not getting it. Infernal is an optional tech. Nightmare is completely correct, slap some nova on it and move on. You don't need infernal, but it makes you the top of the tier if you equip it.
You can make do without xeno versions of tier 6 weapons as well. But you need them more than you need infernal wave, so the refit difference is less. I can't believe this is still on so many people's nerves - it's been like this for almost 2 years now?
You can still be mid level and have xeno gear. Yes, higher quality gear should take a little longer to fit than inferior tech, but why should infernal be 12x longer fit time than comparable non infernal gear. Also, it doesnt matter if its top of the line for its tier, its not end game tech, so why would it take EVEN LONGER than actual end game material lol.
Answer is because its unbalanced, just like mk credit crafting times and prices, and repairs and and and. Remember, just because something has been that way a long time, and we've been forced to deal with it a long time, does not make it okay.
It is the mid-tier end game fitting for DC fleets, and it is equivalent to xeno weapons for Xeno ships instead of weapons like vector and mannifold. If you want better weapons, suffer longer refit time. it's the way it's always been.
Kix themselves have said end game is considered having green **** because there is a massive rift between DC and xeno. So having any xeno hulls makes you end game. I did not say mid-level, I said mid game. Infernal is 4X longer than nova, which is almost comparable in dps. Just like how shatter takes less than a day and xeno shatter is over 2 days, this needs to be longer. This increase is not because it's "end game tech," it's because it's top tier and it gives people an advantage over others. Top tier anything will take longer to fit. Maybe 4 days is too long, but it's trivial and kix won't bother looking at that particular time and reduce it.
Most of the things in this game are unbalanced. Kixeye's road plan should address this (in 5 months or so hahaha) but no where do they say reducing any kind of times. But you never know ...
fair enough on mid-game point. I just want to clarify on this, a nova ray takes less than 6hr to fit, an infernal weapon takes 48-72hr. Thats 8-12x longer. And yes i agree, vega 100% deserves another grand rebalance lol
It seems like the only way to bridge the gap and go from T5 to T6, is by having infernal weapons on your DC hulls(Infernal is DC only). But the 2.5 days of refitting a single level 3 infernal weapon is absolutely ridicules and a fun killer. 10 day for installing 4 wave3 on mk5 Damocles is nonsense, no thanks, I'll leave the siege drivers on it. I believe the fitting time of a level 3 infernal weapon should not exceed 12hrs.
Yes I misspoke and what I meant to say was that infernal is meant to get you as strong as possible (end tier) while staying in that tier.
I understood what you're trying to say from the beginning. This convoluted logic doesn't justify fit times on infernal weapons that are longer than fit times of weapons that are many times more effective. Regardless of the different hulls, tier etc you need in order to use them.
It's all the more nonsensical given that all DC bare hull build times are significantly longer than Xeno/Axis equivalents (with the possible exception of the Paladin, which is about the same or longer than a Dominion once you factor in the fit time of an agility field generator).
Well, I never liked the build time to begin with, but it was what it was at the time. I suspect an issue with asking for a reduction on the infernal weapons is they'd probably have to look at all the weapon build times, so we'd probably be looking at another re-balance. I could be wrong. But that was the last time I remember any changes to build times, but it was across the board, not just for a select few things.
Theyve reduced build/refit times on a select few before, they can certainly do it again, they just wont because they are brain dead and dont realize that reduced times results in more players, they can cut the times down by 75% and regain millions of players
Hmm, I didn't realize that. Well, I sure wouldn't object to a reduction on those infernal weapon build times that's for sure!
Nothing wrong with the time... if you could build and/or refit more than one thing at a time. Easiest way without any retroactive revisions would be to allow another build or refit slot for Ship Factory XII.
Best option would be something tiered towards the size of the ship versus the factory (4 frigates, 3 destroyers, 2 cruiser, or 1 battleship/carrier/flagship)...
@Master Uxi said:
Nothing wrong with the time... if you could build and/or refit more than one thing at a time. Easiest way without any retroactive revisions would be to allow another build or refit slot for Ship Factory XII.
Best option would be something tiered towards the size of the ship versus the factory (4 frigates, 3 destroyers, 2 cruiser, or 1 battleship/carrier/flagship)...
Suggested the "refit bay" and its many versions hundreds of times, the times need to be lowered, there is no denying that, build/refit/repair times are the biggest reason 19+mil of 20mil ids dont play
Build a pally it takes even longer than 30days lol it's Only gonna get worse lol I wanted mod tier weapons you gonna sacrifice refit times and longer build times those are facts NTM any ship past Tier 4 your looking at minimal 9 day to up to 2 weeks just to build a demon core is even worse like Ranger said ridiculous. Resource cost also are sky-high with the bigger ships so you better be prepared to pay up the rear and resources if you want to build better Tech.
I make a jump point account, played 6 weeks, base level 38 (best ship is Boardsword), got my first AXIS hull "Guardian" along with Pulse cannon, Exo shield. I skipped T3,4,5 and jumped right to T6.5 (dont ask me how, very sure i'm not Coiner). So why spinning around those "inferno" junks ? And Kix aint gonna give a shjt to them.
@googleno2 said:
I make a jump point account, played 6 weeks, base level 38 (best ship is Boardsword), got my first AXIS hull "Guardian" along with Pulse cannon, Exo shield. I skipped T3,4,5 and jumped right to T6.5 (dont ask me how, very sure i'm not Coiner). So why spinning around those "inferno" junks ? And Kix aint gonna give a shjt to them.
That certainly deserves a ask, because how the hell did you do that? Broadswords would be 1 shot by even the lowest level alien fleets
@SteelSteve said:
you can hydra ranc the beginning ships of a reaper to get -500ish points for insta rep - and just spam that for dayz to get the points
That would require many hours of play, to recieve a axis hull (2mil i believe) on 500-1000 points... Thats 2k-4k runs, thats gotta be at least 20 total hours of farming for one thing
you can hydra ranc the beginning ships of a reaper to get -500ish points for insta rep - and just spam that for dayz to get the points
The idea is right, but the fitting is wrong. Sorry, im not gonna post here bcuz Kix will fix that. Say, 6K per hit. I did that for 1 reason only "Is that possible?"
well **** I didn't want to let the cat out either I'm not manni! I must say, I almost started the same thing due to the rep these fleets have started costing me. But my time is getting more valuable and these events start to require more of it, so I find the "crash your fleet into the biggest target and then rep for 12h" a bit better than any of that microfarming. I still hate the rep times and damage taken, but it seems like it will just get worse
Answer is because its unbalanced, just like mk credit crafting times and prices, and repairs and and and. Remember, just because something has been that way a long time, and we've been forced to deal with it a long time, does not make it okay.
Most of the things in this game are unbalanced. Kixeye's road plan should address this (in 5 months or so hahaha) but no where do they say reducing any kind of times. But you never know ...
This logic fits a time where t6 doesnt, i get 3days if its the final tier, NOT when its a tier below a tier whos weapons are MORE POWERFUL and TAKE LESS TIME TO REFIT. You guys clearly dont see the **** point, infernal is worthless at 3 days time, xeno tier weapons take less time to build for basically double the damage, there is no point in getting infernal NOW THAT ALIEN STRIKES EXIST.
just existing at this point
You really think people now are going to stick to dc after alien strikes exist? Stfu with that logic dude. Infernal weapons dont deserve 3 **** days build time when the clearly more powerful tier takes less time, i dont give a **** if infernal is "end mid tier" mid tier is not a tier where 3 day **** refits should exist, when high tier and end tier take LESS TIME. Stfu will you? Your logic makes no sense. Your literally saying a weaker class of weapons should take more time than the next tiers "end tier weapons"
just existing at this point
I guess it depends on one's priories. If you're just trying to move from T5 to T6 as fast as possible, no it might not make sense to use them. If you're trying to build the best DC ships while you're at T5, infernal weapons may make sense, though I don't know I'd go exclusive on that due to build times. But having one or two infernal ships mixed a fleet in might actually help a player move from T5 to T6 as those are going to have the highest dps available for T5.
I still think 3 days is to much, its weaker than the tier above it which takes less time, that logic doesnt work in this game, progression should be "the stronger it is the longer it takes to build" but not to an extent like 3 day long dc infernal weapons, which deal damage similar to heavy weapons. You should feel accomplished that you got a powerful weapon, but you shouldn't be shot down by the fact the next tier is faster, and in this current time, that's what it's going to look like. Just because its "end mid tier" does not give it the right to take longer than weapons more powerful than it, i dont care about the next tier being xeno or not, infernal IS dcs xeno weapons, and yet they have the same damage as, but take longer to build than a heavy weapon
just existing at this point
Theyve reduced build/refit times on a select few before, they can certainly do it again, they just wont because they are brain dead and dont realize that reduced times results in more players, they can cut the times down by 75% and regain millions of players
just existing at this point
TinyLadLen said:
SteelSteve said: Yes I misspoke and what I meant to say was that infernal is meant to get you as strong as possible (end tier) while staying in that tier. This is important because kix has talked about the massive rift between DC and xeno and how hard it is to get. Alien strikes do nothing to help people get punishers because they have ancient targets.
Anyone who cannot understand what I'm saying, take a fleet of DC ships and hit any target during this alien strike. Pick the lowest one possible. Look at your damage in the end, and then calculate what you will need to get a punisher. Or give me the numbers and I'll calculate it for you.
It is incredibly hard to use ships that aren't xeno in these events that offer xeno - thus the rift that exists between the two. This is because those of us that have xeno and axis have become so powerful with them, that the events were scaled up to meet our power, and anyone who didn't get them at that time now faces a massive power gap (where the events started moving up without them).
Responses to several people above are very simple. If you own a single xeno ship, of any kind, you are no longer a mid-tier player. At that point, infernal doesn't make any sense to build. You literally cannot sit there and argue with the use of infernal by saying xeno is better because you can say that with anything. It's not a valid argument. Infernal gives people who have no xeno a leg up in that tier. IN THAT TIER. Since xeno isn't in that tier, you can't compare it to xeno. Infernal is essentially the xeno OF THAT TIER.
You can tell the difference between the two tiers because of the massive rift. Just like the rift between people who have some battleships and the ragnarok and people who don't have it. It literally gives you the option to play new events when you finally get the item.
Basically anyone who finds it hard to understand needs to take a DC fleet and hit the lowest alien fleet they can find - since the events are continually scaled to end game players, DC can't survive anymore.
Nightmare Deathlock said:
Yeah I'm ok with saying the actual time is too long (as I said before), but it can't be in line with heavy weapons, because it would defeat the purpose of saying "the stronger the weapon, the longer the build time." By your logic, we either need to increase xeno build times to be able to fit an increase in every stronger weapon out there (because some stronger weapons have less refit time) or we need to crush the entire low tier structure into hour build times to keep xeno the same way. At least the way it is, people already know that when moving up a tier, they should expect 2-4 day refit times when looking at the most powerful weapon. Wouldn't you be discouraged to move up if you knew that the new ship and weapons would always take longer to build than the one you are using? Why would you want to move up if it was like that?
I want all build times reduced (as unlikely as that is) dc infernal weapons are powerful and certainly deserve a long build time, just not longer than the weapons a tier above it, and infernal is DC only... So making it a similar time to heavy weapons really isnt changing much, at xeno your generally aiming for the xeno or normal versions more often than the heavy versions anyway (even though the heavies are still fairly useful)...
just existing at this point
It's all the more nonsensical given that all DC bare hull build times are significantly longer than Xeno/Axis equivalents (with the possible exception of the Paladin, which is about the same or longer than a Dominion once you factor in the fit time of an agility field generator).
Best option would be something tiered towards the size of the ship versus the factory (4 frigates, 3 destroyers, 2 cruiser, or 1 battleship/carrier/flagship)...
Suggested the "refit bay" and its many versions hundreds of times, the times need to be lowered, there is no denying that, build/refit/repair times are the biggest reason 19+mil of 20mil ids dont play
just existing at this point
Build a pally it takes even longer than 30days lol it's Only gonna get worse lol I wanted mod tier weapons you gonna sacrifice refit times and longer build times those are facts NTM any ship past Tier 4 your looking at minimal 9 day to up to 2 weeks just to build a demon core is even worse like Ranger said ridiculous. Resource cost also are sky-high with the bigger ships so you better be prepared to pay up the rear and resources if you want to build better Tech.
That certainly deserves a ask, because how the hell did you do that? Broadswords would be 1 shot by even the lowest level alien fleets
just existing at this point
That would require many hours of play, to recieve a axis hull (2mil i believe) on 500-1000 points... Thats 2k-4k runs, thats gotta be at least 20 total hours of farming for one thing
just existing at this point