Build speeds creeping up again

  • Proteus-606
    Proteus-606
    Master Tactician
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 2,195
    TheHolsh said:
    tigerexp said:
    bort said:
    tigerexp said:
    And when do you get the chance to build pvp fleets, as all the dock time is spent with raid hulls.


    with the tokens they hand out like candy.
    In a dream world again, everything is fine with the game absolutely no problem. So you think build times are ok ?
    just because you are having a hard time  taking advantage of what the game offers does not mean that everyone does. I look at the op build time that says sixteen days but  in reality it is only six  since for about fifteen minutes play time to do the fm we get a ton of tokens.  there is nothing wrong with the game, just perspective and false expectations of some of the players.
    The new special has too long a build time. It's that simple. especially as it seems the special seems it isn't that great either. Which may actually be a good thing, as I may just not bother using it.

    Just because you are doing well, doesn't mean others can't voice concerns about things. It is also in your interest. If you are doing well now, then reduced build times will mean you are doing even better.

    I notice as well, you, like bort, have low medals. This would indicate you aren't exactly competitive in PvP, maybe not building as much PvP hulls as others, maybe not bothering with refits of your guards every time a new threat comes out.

    If you aren't playing the game to it's full potential, then maybe you shouldn't judge how well others are doing and say things like "taking advantage of what the game has to offer". Some of us are struggling to build 3 fleets at once, because we PvP, defend and PvE, we are playing the game to it's full potential. Not just care-bear playing Vs. the computer, or weak bases.

    P.s. On Wednesday, I want you to post a pic on this thread of you winning 10 days of build tokens in the FM.
    I made it to 4th in the game in medals without spending any coins. It is possible to play every side of the game. You just need proper planning.
    I agree. My point was twofold. One, increasing build times will impede many players, and have an effect on all players to some degree, and not for the better. especially in such tight turn around of raid cycles. the game just ends up a chore, rather than fun to play. It's meant to be fun, not a logistics planning exercise. If you enjoy logistics, then great, but that isn't what this game started out as, and that isn't where it should end up either.
    I'm not adverse to a bit of tactical planning, and I manage my limited time on the game well, but I am regularly close to breaking point time wise and any increase in build times is a negative for me.
    We already moved away from 20 day builds back in the days before conq hulls, due in no small part to all the outrage about the game being hard to keep up, but now it seems we are creeping back towards them.
    I'm not suggesting some ridiculous 10 day build for the latest and best PvE hull either, just a slight reduction to keep it balanced with previous similar grade hulls.

    Secondly, you might have high medals and be managing well in the game, which to be fair, gives you a greater right to point out where people are going wrong with build times, planning etc. But when a player has 277 or 360 medals and clearly isn't a competitive PvP player, most likely lacking a lot of tech and built hulls, and they are telling everyone the game is easy. That is where I see an issue.
    Coming Soon in Kixeye land means "When Satan need to put the heating on"
  • Professor Yana
    Professor Yana
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Aug 2012 Posts: 1,715
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    No, no, it's not +70 torpedo damage, it's +70% torpedo damage.

    However, it's combined with the hull's inherent +150% for a total of +220% torpedo damage, so because of how the stats are displayed in the shipyard, it looks like Torpedo Tubes have a slightly lesser effect than Strike Warheads or Advanced Concussive Payload.

    Per GD Raikan, though, Torpedo Tubes are actually the best of the three specials, and they'll be fixing the display bug after the raid is over.
     image
  • Proteus-606
    Proteus-606
    Master Tactician
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 2,195
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    all I know is that when you substitute strike warheads for the new special in either the ship yard or Huggy's, damage goes up
    I don't know why, I am not a Kixeye math wizard, it could very well be a bug
    but even it it did increase torp damage by what I think should be 70%, it will always come down to the same thing it does with any build...is the extra damage sufficiently valuable to account for the increased build time?
    To some it may be, to others not.
    but I don't think this one special needs to become a referendum on build times in general.
    tbh, I think build times have stayed relatively stable on the PvE side.
    As things get stronger, you should expect some increase in whatever price you're paying (be it time, coin, etc)
    I am glad I am won't be having to build or even refit my FM fleet any time soon (for example) and therefore think a build time of 12-16 days, shortened by the occasional FM or reduced rate token, for a hull that will last a year is pretty fair.  
    I disagree slightly on the increased time as things get tougher. The problem is with that strategy, we will end up where we did before, having builds in excess of 20 days and they can only continue to climb. Also the hull isn't really tougher, as it is tailored to a particular new target, in which it isn't tougher really, because it is the only true option (or one of two, at least) for that target anyway.
    Ideally, I'd like to see a cap at 14 days max for standard hulls and perhaps a rolling reduction in obsolete/near obsolete tech to help newer players catch up.
    You are right, one special shouldn't be used to bemoan all build times, but unchecked it becomes a slippery ****, so I feel it's worth mentioning.
    I also agree that for the most part, builds have been fairly stable in the last 6 months, which is good. As I said above though, unchecked things can get out of hand, so raising a flag about it can't hurt.
    Only time will tell if the 16 day build will actually be enough in the new cycle, it may end up that the hull needs full armour, and therefore a longer build. Hopefully it will be enough, in which case 16 isn't the worst, but I still think 14 would be much more balanced.
    It is good once they are built and knowing you won't need to touch them for 10 months or so though. I'm with you on that one for sure.
    Coming Soon in Kixeye land means "When Satan need to put the heating on"
  • Proteus-606
    Proteus-606
    Master Tactician
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 2,195
    This is an option, but it's not a good one. The loss of damage is pretty huge, and if the current cycle is anything to go by, we will need all the damage we can eek out of these hulls.
    You didn't look at the stats.  Damage & DPS Strike Warhead > Torp Tubes.   
    Check this thread, one of the devs has confirmed this is a display problem that they are going to fix

    https://www.kixeye.com/forum/discussion/710880
    Thanks for that link. I did think something was wrong there. Statistically the old specials looked better, which doesn't make sense really for a brand new 2 day +, 15 mil special.
    Coming Soon in Kixeye land means "When Satan need to put the heating on"
  • Proteus-606
    Proteus-606
    Master Tactician
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 2,195
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    No, no, it's not +70 torpedo damage, it's +70% torpedo damage.

    However, it's combined with the hull's inherent +150% for a total of +220% torpedo damage, so because of how the stats are displayed in the shipyard, it looks like Torpedo Tubes have a slightly lesser effect than Strike Warheads or Advanced Concussive Payload.

    Per GD Raikan, though, Torpedo Tubes are actually the best of the three specials, and they'll be fixing the display bug after the raid is over.
    Thanks. it appears it's a visual bug and tubes are a lot better, just displaying the wrong stats in the yard.
    Coming Soon in Kixeye land means "When Satan need to put the heating on"
  • bort
    bort
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 8,257
    bort said:
    tigerexp said:
    And when do you get the chance to build pvp fleets, as all the dock time is spent with raid hulls.


    with the tokens they hand out like candy.


    My issue was in part due to the long build of the phoenix weapons on release, costing me a VXP weekend, meaning the hulls sucked for the first raid. this was rectified with tokens, because even kix realised the build was too long and the worst part is, that was already a shorter build than this sub!


    what do you mean? the phoenix only needed one weapon for vxp weekend to skull it. you could get all 4 out before that weekend.

    and more than likely it will be the same for this vxp weekend. except you will likely need them to allow us a 2 day build token this week to get 4 out. albeit with 2 or 3 weapons each.
  • bort
    bort
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 8,257
    tigerexp said:
    bort said:
    tigerexp said:
    And when do you get the chance to build pvp fleets, as all the dock time is spent with raid hulls.


    with the tokens they hand out like candy.
    When exactly is this candy drop? The first two weeks of the FM will be clogged with garbage, as usual, so less tokens. We may even find we can't get the 4 days in tier 4, if they add junk in there too.

    And like I said, there are tokens in the raid, but they aren't available to everyone. Many will just be scraping by to get the top prizes with lot's of grinding. I'm one of them this month. My Phoenix fleet weren't ready for the first raid and only just decent for the second, so now lack the flag. This means the raid is grindy as hell and I work weekends and week days. We can't all sit at our comps day in day out. This isn't Kixeye's fault, but they could at least try to help out the people who have real lives instead of just pandering to the time-rich.

    My issue was in part due to the long build of the phoenix weapons on release, costing me a VXP weekend, meaning the hulls sucked for the first raid. this was rectified with tokens, because even kix realised the build was too long and the worst part is, that was already a shorter build than this sub!

    And yes, I have completed the FM and finish it twice every week. even with all the tokens, it is still VERY tight to get everything necessary done. How must it be for the guys who don't yet have the FM done? I also coin a little!

    Raining tokens...yeah I don't think so. But I will concede, there are JUST enough tokens to keep your head above water, when, WHEN, build times aren't 20 days a hull. When hulls are around the 10-14 day mark, I have no issue. That is perfectly reasonable and do-able for most players who put the effort in.

    I found the garrison cycle much better, as the hulls were quicker to build and as a result, with some careful planning and good time management, I was able to get a great fleet out reasonable quickly. That raid was more forgiving of lower rank hulls too. We are seeing a drastic increase in VXP necessity in this raid and this is a trend that may well continue into the the next. Making slow builds even more of an issue.

    I normally agree with a lot of stuff you post, but on this one, I can't disagree more. Defending an almost 20 day build reeks of Kixeye pandering and fan boy behavior, sorry bud. 
    He always refers to TLCs when quoting raining tokens, and ignores any pvp hulls you win through the raids. He comes up with the same b/s every time someone mention build times. Predictable and getting boring Bort. 
    i didnt realise tlcs never gave pvp tokens.

    i wish they would do that .....
  • bort
    bort
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 8,257
    TheHolsh said:
    tigerexp said:
    bort said:
    tigerexp said:
    And when do you get the chance to build pvp fleets, as all the dock time is spent with raid hulls.


    with the tokens they hand out like candy.
    In a dream world again, everything is fine with the game absolutely no problem. So you think build times are ok ?
    just because you are having a hard time  taking advantage of what the game offers does not mean that everyone does. I look at the op build time that says sixteen days but  in reality it is only six  since for about fifteen minutes play time to do the fm we get a ton of tokens.  there is nothing wrong with the game, just perspective and false expectations of some of the players.
    The new special has too long a build time. It's that simple. especially as it seems the special seems it isn't that great either. Which may actually be a good thing, as I may just not bother using it.

    Just because you are doing well, doesn't mean others can't voice concerns about things. It is also in your interest. If you are doing well now, then reduced build times will mean you are doing even better.

    I notice as well, you, like bort, have low medals. This would indicate you aren't exactly competitive in PvP, maybe not building as much PvP hulls as others, maybe not bothering with refits of your guards every time a new threat comes out.

    If you aren't playing the game to it's full potential, then maybe you shouldn't judge how well others are doing and say things like "taking advantage of what the game has to offer". Some of us are struggling to build 3 fleets at once, because we PvP, defend and PvE, we are playing the game to it's full potential. Not just care-bear playing Vs. the computer, or weak bases.

    P.s. On Wednesday, I want you to post a pic on this thread of you winning 10 days of build tokens in the FM.
    I made it to 4th in the game in medals without spending any coins. It is possible to play every side of the game. You just need proper planning.
    I agree. My point was twofold. One, increasing build times will impede many players, and have an effect on all players to some degree, and not for the better. especially in such tight turn around of raid cycles. the game just ends up a chore, rather than fun to play. It's meant to be fun, not a logistics planning exercise. If you enjoy logistics, then great, but that isn't what this game started out as, and that isn't where it should end up either.
    I'm not adverse to a bit of tactical planning, and I manage my limited time on the game well, but I am regularly close to breaking point time wise and any increase in build times is a negative for me.
    We already moved away from 20 day builds back in the days before conq hulls, due in no small part to all the outrage about the game being hard to keep up, but now it seems we are creeping back towards them.
    I'm not suggesting some ridiculous 10 day build for the latest and best PvE hull either, just a slight reduction to keep it balanced with previous similar grade hulls.

    Secondly, you might have high medals and be managing well in the game, which to be fair, gives you a greater right to point out where people are going wrong with build times, planning etc. But when a player has 277 or 360 medals and clearly isn't a competitive PvP player, most likely lacking a lot of tech and built hulls, and they are telling everyone the game is easy. That is where I see an issue.
    what i could do, and what i actually do in PvP is not exactly the same thing.

    but yes it is true. i only have rage/reina is not built out much beyond shells. and haven't built out my justice beyond a shell either.

    however, if i were pvp focussed, say last raid series i probably would not have built out ironclads. That would have been an extra 40+ days of PvP ship build time that is instantly free.
  • Proteus-606
    Proteus-606
    Master Tactician
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 2,195
    bort said:
    bort said:
    tigerexp said:
    And when do you get the chance to build pvp fleets, as all the dock time is spent with raid hulls.


    with the tokens they hand out like candy.


    My issue was in part due to the long build of the phoenix weapons on release, costing me a VXP weekend, meaning the hulls sucked for the first raid. this was rectified with tokens, because even kix realised the build was too long and the worst part is, that was already a shorter build than this sub!


    what do you mean? the phoenix only needed one weapon for vxp weekend to skull it. you could get all 4 out before that weekend.

    and more than likely it will be the same for this vxp weekend. except you will likely need them to allow us a 2 day build token this week to get 4 out. albeit with 2 or 3 weapons each.
    I did in fairness make a mistake on that VXP weekend, and put 2 weapons per hull, which is my fault, but would have been better if they hadn't put such large times on the weapon. I normally put thud 1's on too, so doubly stupid move by me.
    That week after, if memory serves also had no tokens. It had two garbage prizes in tier 4 too. There were a few complaints on here about it at the time.

    They take 4 days + per hull, so it's unlikely most will get 4 out with 1 2 day token. Unless they are able to get all the build tokens in the raid, but that is pretty pricey for many. And that is one of my points. If all you focus is PvE, you're grand. But if you are claiming and building conqs too then longer build times become more of a problem.

    All this isn't really relevant to the thread though. It was more an afterthought pointing out the difficulties and strains of builds and limited time.
    Coming Soon in Kixeye land means "When Satan need to put the heating on"
  • bort
    bort
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 8,257
    bort said:
    bort said:
    tigerexp said:
    And when do you get the chance to build pvp fleets, as all the dock time is spent with raid hulls.


    with the tokens they hand out like candy.


    My issue was in part due to the long build of the phoenix weapons on release, costing me a VXP weekend, meaning the hulls sucked for the first raid. this was rectified with tokens, because even kix realised the build was too long and the worst part is, that was already a shorter build than this sub!


    what do you mean? the phoenix only needed one weapon for vxp weekend to skull it. you could get all 4 out before that weekend.

    and more than likely it will be the same for this vxp weekend. except you will likely need them to allow us a 2 day build token this week to get 4 out. albeit with 2 or 3 weapons each.
    I did in fairness make a mistake on that VXP weekend, and put 2 weapons per hull, which is my fault, but would have been better if they hadn't put such large times on the weapon. I normally put thud 1's on too, so doubly stupid move by me.
    That week after, if memory serves also had no tokens. It had two garbage prizes in tier 4 too. There were a few complaints on here about it at the time.

    They take 4 days + per hull, so it's unlikely most will get 4 out with 1 2 day token. Unless they are able to get all the build tokens in the raid, but that is pretty pricey for many. And that is one of my points. If all you focus is PvE, you're grand. But if you are claiming and building conqs too then longer build times become more of a problem.

    All this isn't really relevant to the thread though. It was more an afterthought pointing out the difficulties and strains of builds and limited time.
    yes true. but build times and that first vxp weekend are tightly linked.

    i dont actually agree with just a thud.(well build it with a thud 1, but then refit one weapon). you dont get enough vxp by just suiciding, so i go with the at least one weapon principle.

    thing is though, the October raid will be balanced towards what the majority have to a degree. So if you have 3 fully built and ranked fangs, it should be a pretty easy raid.
  • Cathedral_Rock
    Cathedral_Rock
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 8,604
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    all I know is that when you substitute strike warheads for the new special in either the ship yard or Huggy's, damage goes up
    I don't know why, I am not a Kixeye math wizard, it could very well be a bug
    but even it it did increase torp damage by what I think should be 70%, it will always come down to the same thing it does with any build...is the extra damage sufficiently valuable to account for the increased build time?
    To some it may be, to others not.
    but I don't think this one special needs to become a referendum on build times in general.
    tbh, I think build times have stayed relatively stable on the PvE side.
    As things get stronger, you should expect some increase in whatever price you're paying (be it time, coin, etc)
    I am glad I am won't be having to build or even refit my FM fleet any time soon (for example) and therefore think a build time of 12-16 days, shortened by the occasional FM or reduced rate token, for a hull that will last a year is pretty fair.  
    I disagree slightly on the increased time as things get tougher. The problem is with that strategy, we will end up where we did before, having builds in excess of 20 days and they can only continue to climb. Also the hull isn't really tougher, as it is tailored to a particular new target, in which it isn't tougher really, because it is the only true option (or one of two, at least) for that target anyway.
    Ideally, I'd like to see a cap at 14 days max for standard hulls and perhaps a rolling reduction in obsolete/near obsolete tech to help newer players catch up.
    You are right, one special shouldn't be used to bemoan all build times, but unchecked it becomes a slippery ****, so I feel it's worth mentioning.
    I also agree that for the most part, builds have been fairly stable in the last 6 months, which is good. As I said above though, unchecked things can get out of hand, so raising a flag about it can't hurt.
    Only time will tell if the 16 day build will actually be enough in the new cycle, it may end up that the hull needs full armour, and therefore a longer build. Hopefully it will be enough, in which case 16 isn't the worst, but I still think 14 would be much more balanced.
    It is good once they are built and knowing you won't need to touch them for 10 months or so though. I'm with you on that one for sure.
    I just want to make sure we are still just talking about the special at this point
    while it offers (as has been announced) almost 50% greater damage than advanced concussive payload at a lower weight, it does have the same build time.
    so again, no real escalation for what now appears to be a better special.
    it is long...no doubt about it.

    we would all like to see a cap on build times.
    I can't imagine it ever happening.

  • Professor Yana
    Professor Yana
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Aug 2012 Posts: 1,715
    bort said:
    bort said:
    tigerexp said:
    And when do you get the chance to build pvp fleets, as all the dock time is spent with raid hulls.


    with the tokens they hand out like candy.


    My issue was in part due to the long build of the phoenix weapons on release, costing me a VXP weekend, meaning the hulls sucked for the first raid. this was rectified with tokens, because even kix realised the build was too long and the worst part is, that was already a shorter build than this sub!


    what do you mean? the phoenix only needed one weapon for vxp weekend to skull it. you could get all 4 out before that weekend.

    and more than likely it will be the same for this vxp weekend. except you will likely need them to allow us a 2 day build token this week to get 4 out. albeit with 2 or 3 weapons each.
    I did in fairness make a mistake on that VXP weekend, and put 2 weapons per hull, which is my fault, but would have been better if they hadn't put such large times on the weapon. I normally put thud 1's on too, so doubly stupid move by me.
    That week after, if memory serves also had no tokens. It had two garbage prizes in tier 4 too. There were a few complaints on here about it at the time.

    They take 4 days + per hull, so it's unlikely most will get 4 out with 1 2 day token. Unless they are able to get all the build tokens in the raid, but that is pretty pricey for many. And that is one of my points. If all you focus is PvE, you're grand. But if you are claiming and building conqs too then longer build times become more of a problem.

    All this isn't really relevant to the thread though. It was more an afterthought pointing out the difficulties and strains of builds and limited time.
    Well, between stockpiled FM tokens and a handful picked up in the raid, I have two shells built with a third cooking.

    If I'm supremely lucky, I might have four shells ready to go, but I'm not counting on it.

    (As for my shells... two of them have one Charon and SS5, the third - and, with luck, fourth - will have one Delirium and SS5; and a funny thing I noticed: the Delirium builds two days quicker than the Charon, despite being a better weapon.)
     image
  • PenguinPants
    PenguinPants
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Aug 2015 Posts: 1,572
    The ship is less than two weeks to build, unarmored. That has been the average baseline for many months. I've always built my ships unarmored for the first cycle since armor add a tremendous amount of build time.

    You should be more concerned over the fact that a fully outfitted Hellwraith takes significantly longer to build than a fully outfitted Fangtooth.
  • Proteus-606
    Proteus-606
    Master Tactician
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 2,195
    The ship is less than two weeks to build, unarmored. That has been the average baseline for many months. I've always built my ships unarmored for the first cycle since armor add a tremendous amount of build time.

    You should be more concerned over the fact that a fully outfitted Hellwraith takes significantly longer to build than a fully outfitted Fangtooth.
    I'm assuming you mean a HW with older torps, because I just tried a build with HW and newer tech (within weight constraints) and it came out slightly less than the fang.

    The HW was from the last skirmish cycle. Which considering we're back to skirmish again, tells you how long ago that was.

    That was a hull and most importantly, it's associated tech, that came from the darker days of BP when build times were getting ridiculous. Sure it takes a long time to build, but comparing the two is pointless really. The hellwraith is virtually pointless to build to now, especially as the tide was available so easily recently, complete with tokens.

    Unarmoured is a personal choice. I for one want them armoured as soon as they are ranked, but we shouldn't feel forced to avoid armour just to make build times acceptable.

    I have to stress, I'm not saying it should be dropped to 3 days total, or some craziness like that, cos "WAAAAAHHH, i cant keep up so it must be unfair". I merely think 14 days max for a fully finished standard hull should be the norm. I think 14 days is still long enough to put pressure on players, but doesn't make everything feel so slow and chore like.

    As I said to Cathedral, this hull isn't any better than it's predecessors, because you can only compare a PvE hull to it's target now, and this hull is JUST good enough for the task. If we had always continued to accept "better must take longer", we'd be looking at 75 day builds by now. There eventually has to come a point where we cap or roll back, or things get stupid.
    I also think older tech should be routinely reduced in build times to reflect it's age and usefulness.  As Cathedral pointed out above, the new special takes as long to build as the very old (and also dark age) concussive payload, which is nowhere near as good. That old special could surely use another look time-wise.
    Coming Soon in Kixeye land means "When Satan need to put the heating on"
  • Proteus-606
    Proteus-606
    Master Tactician
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 2,195
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    all I know is that when you substitute strike warheads for the new special in either the ship yard or Huggy's, damage goes up
    I don't know why, I am not a Kixeye math wizard, it could very well be a bug
    but even it it did increase torp damage by what I think should be 70%, it will always come down to the same thing it does with any build...is the extra damage sufficiently valuable to account for the increased build time?
    To some it may be, to others not.
    but I don't think this one special needs to become a referendum on build times in general.
    tbh, I think build times have stayed relatively stable on the PvE side.
    As things get stronger, you should expect some increase in whatever price you're paying (be it time, coin, etc)
    I am glad I am won't be having to build or even refit my FM fleet any time soon (for example) and therefore think a build time of 12-16 days, shortened by the occasional FM or reduced rate token, for a hull that will last a year is pretty fair.  
    You are pretty hot on forum knowledge, so you probably already know this, but just in case, we were both right, the special is better and it was a bug.

    The new special is definitely the way to go.
    Coming Soon in Kixeye land means "When Satan need to put the heating on"
  • Cathedral_Rock
    Cathedral_Rock
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 8,604
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    all I know is that when you substitute strike warheads for the new special in either the ship yard or Huggy's, damage goes up
    I don't know why, I am not a Kixeye math wizard, it could very well be a bug
    but even it it did increase torp damage by what I think should be 70%, it will always come down to the same thing it does with any build...is the extra damage sufficiently valuable to account for the increased build time?
    To some it may be, to others not.
    but I don't think this one special needs to become a referendum on build times in general.
    tbh, I think build times have stayed relatively stable on the PvE side.
    As things get stronger, you should expect some increase in whatever price you're paying (be it time, coin, etc)
    I am glad I am won't be having to build or even refit my FM fleet any time soon (for example) and therefore think a build time of 12-16 days, shortened by the occasional FM or reduced rate token, for a hull that will last a year is pretty fair.  
    You are pretty hot on forum knowledge, so you probably already know this, but just in case, we were both right, the special is better and it was a bug.

    The new special is definitely the way to go.
    yeah, mate...I conceded that in my last response.
    but I also pointed out that the build time on this special is the same as for advanced concussive payload while providing better performance and lower weight.
    ^
    |
    |
    that's called value!
    ^
    |
    |
    that's called sarcasm

  • GrumpyReign
    GrumpyReign
    Master Tactician
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 2,360
    tigerexp said:
    bort said:
    tigerexp said:
    And when do you get the chance to build pvp fleets, as all the dock time is spent with raid hulls.


    with the tokens they hand out like candy.
    In a dream world again, everything is fine with the game absolutely no problem. So you think build times are ok ?
    uhm. there was enough time/tokens between last hull raid and this to build a fleet of phens + flag, a fleet of skies + flag, a fleet of rages + flag, a couple guards, refit 5 other guards, refit 6 or 7 other conq boats.. 

    i'm unclear on what your expectations are
    I can feel you judging me. That's palpable. But, hey, I never said I was the hero of this story.
  • devilsreject971
    devilsreject971
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 1,172
    TheHolsh said:

    Pvp shipyard is coming soon so.....

    Hopefully that won't be the usual Kixeye coming soon, and more of a regular coming soon lol
    Thursday....
  • GrumpyReign
    GrumpyReign
    Master Tactician
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 2,360
    This is an option, but it's not a good one. The loss of damage is pretty huge, and if the current cycle is anything to go by, we will need all the damage we can eek out of these hulls.
    You didn't look at the stats.  Damage & DPS Strike Warhead > Torp Tubes.   
    anyone else find it chilling that someone wouldn't even question something before their eyes that made no sense, much less try to correct someone with it?
    I can feel you judging me. That's palpable. But, hey, I never said I was the hero of this story.
  • GrumpyReign
    GrumpyReign
    Master Tactician
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 2,360
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    all I know is that when you substitute strike warheads for the new special in either the ship yard or Huggy's, damage goes up
    I don't know why, I am not a Kixeye math wizard, it could very well be a bug
    but even it it did increase torp damage by what I think should be 70%, it will always come down to the same thing it does with any build...is the extra damage sufficiently valuable to account for the increased build time?
    To some it may be, to others not.
    but I don't think this one special needs to become a referendum on build times in general.
    tbh, I think build times have stayed relatively stable on the PvE side.
    As things get stronger, you should expect some increase in whatever price you're paying (be it time, coin, etc)
    I am glad I am won't be having to build or even refit my FM fleet any time soon (for example) and therefore think a build time of 12-16 days, shortened by the occasional FM or reduced rate token, for a hull that will last a year is pretty fair.  
    I disagree slightly on the increased time as things get tougher. The problem is with that strategy, we will end up where we did before, having builds in excess of 20 days and they can only continue to climb. Also the hull isn't really tougher, as it is tailored to a particular new target, in which it isn't tougher really, because it is the only true option (or one of two, at least) for that target anyway.
    Ideally, I'd like to see a cap at 14 days max for standard hulls and perhaps a rolling reduction in obsolete/near obsolete tech to help newer players catch up.
    You are right, one special shouldn't be used to bemoan all build times, but unchecked it becomes a slippery ****, so I feel it's worth mentioning.
    I also agree that for the most part, builds have been fairly stable in the last 6 months, which is good. As I said above though, unchecked things can get out of hand, so raising a flag about it can't hurt.
    Only time will tell if the 16 day build will actually be enough in the new cycle, it may end up that the hull needs full armour, and therefore a longer build. Hopefully it will be enough, in which case 16 isn't the worst, but I still think 14 would be much more balanced.
    It is good once they are built and knowing you won't need to touch them for 10 months or so though. I'm with you on that one for sure.
    wait, why?
    I can feel you judging me. That's palpable. But, hey, I never said I was the hero of this story.
  • Proteus-606
    Proteus-606
    Master Tactician
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 2,195
    edited 21 Sep 2017, 4:40PM
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    all I know is that when you substitute strike warheads for the new special in either the ship yard or Huggy's, damage goes up
    I don't know why, I am not a Kixeye math wizard, it could very well be a bug
    but even it it did increase torp damage by what I think should be 70%, it will always come down to the same thing it does with any build...is the extra damage sufficiently valuable to account for the increased build time?
    To some it may be, to others not.
    but I don't think this one special needs to become a referendum on build times in general.
    tbh, I think build times have stayed relatively stable on the PvE side.
    As things get stronger, you should expect some increase in whatever price you're paying (be it time, coin, etc)
    I am glad I am won't be having to build or even refit my FM fleet any time soon (for example) and therefore think a build time of 12-16 days, shortened by the occasional FM or reduced rate token, for a hull that will last a year is pretty fair.  
    I disagree slightly on the increased time as things get tougher. The problem is with that strategy, we will end up where we did before, having builds in excess of 20 days and they can only continue to climb. Also the hull isn't really tougher, as it is tailored to a particular new target, in which it isn't tougher really, because it is the only true option (or one of two, at least) for that target anyway.
    Ideally, I'd like to see a cap at 14 days max for standard hulls and perhaps a rolling reduction in obsolete/near obsolete tech to help newer players catch up.
    You are right, one special shouldn't be used to bemoan all build times, but unchecked it becomes a slippery ****, so I feel it's worth mentioning.
    I also agree that for the most part, builds have been fairly stable in the last 6 months, which is good. As I said above though, unchecked things can get out of hand, so raising a flag about it can't hurt.
    Only time will tell if the 16 day build will actually be enough in the new cycle, it may end up that the hull needs full armour, and therefore a longer build. Hopefully it will be enough, in which case 16 isn't the worst, but I still think 14 would be much more balanced.
    It is good once they are built and knowing you won't need to touch them for 10 months or so though. I'm with you on that one for sure.
    wait, why?
    You need to read his post too. What he was saying is, if it's tougher, builds need to go up. but the problem is, builds continuously get tougher, so build times would need to keep going up too. that strategy doesn't work. It's what got us into the last 20 day+ build times.

    Tech isn't actually tougher. Sure, it is tougher than the class hull that came before it, but that is irrelevant. It isn't tougher than the latest targets it's intended to hit. It's just right at best. so why should it take longer to build, if it is is essentially just as good at doing it's targets as it's predecessor was at doing their targets?
    Coming Soon in Kixeye land means "When Satan need to put the heating on"
  • Proteus-606
    Proteus-606
    Master Tactician
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 2,195
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    all I know is that when you substitute strike warheads for the new special in either the ship yard or Huggy's, damage goes up
    I don't know why, I am not a Kixeye math wizard, it could very well be a bug
    but even it it did increase torp damage by what I think should be 70%, it will always come down to the same thing it does with any build...is the extra damage sufficiently valuable to account for the increased build time?
    To some it may be, to others not.
    but I don't think this one special needs to become a referendum on build times in general.
    tbh, I think build times have stayed relatively stable on the PvE side.
    As things get stronger, you should expect some increase in whatever price you're paying (be it time, coin, etc)
    I am glad I am won't be having to build or even refit my FM fleet any time soon (for example) and therefore think a build time of 12-16 days, shortened by the occasional FM or reduced rate token, for a hull that will last a year is pretty fair.  
    You are pretty hot on forum knowledge, so you probably already know this, but just in case, we were both right, the special is better and it was a bug.

    The new special is definitely the way to go.
    yeah, mate...I conceded that in my last response.
    but I also pointed out that the build time on this special is the same as for advanced concussive payload while providing better performance and lower weight.
    ^
    |
    |
    that's called value!
    ^
    |
    |
    that's called sarcasm

    I'm not sure if you are goofing, or if you took offence there. None was intended. you initially stated the strike was better, and then stated it could be a bug. I said I think the new special should be better based on stats. so we were both right, it is better and it is a bug.

    And I already agreed. The new special is better. Just a shame it has the same build time as special from a time when builds were generally higher and supposedly reduced now. doesn't look reduced to me, looks exactly the same lol
    Coming Soon in Kixeye land means "When Satan need to put the heating on"
  • KillerChrome7
    KillerChrome7
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Sep 2014 Posts: 391
    Well not being fixed this week .... better luck next week all ...  Just gamble on one special now and refit later if/when they ever fix it... 

  • Cathedral_Rock
    Cathedral_Rock
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 8,604
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    all I know is that when you substitute strike warheads for the new special in either the ship yard or Huggy's, damage goes up
    I don't know why, I am not a Kixeye math wizard, it could very well be a bug
    but even it it did increase torp damage by what I think should be 70%, it will always come down to the same thing it does with any build...is the extra damage sufficiently valuable to account for the increased build time?
    To some it may be, to others not.
    but I don't think this one special needs to become a referendum on build times in general.
    tbh, I think build times have stayed relatively stable on the PvE side.
    As things get stronger, you should expect some increase in whatever price you're paying (be it time, coin, etc)
    I am glad I am won't be having to build or even refit my FM fleet any time soon (for example) and therefore think a build time of 12-16 days, shortened by the occasional FM or reduced rate token, for a hull that will last a year is pretty fair.  
    You are pretty hot on forum knowledge, so you probably already know this, but just in case, we were both right, the special is better and it was a bug.

    The new special is definitely the way to go.
    yeah, mate...I conceded that in my last response.
    but I also pointed out that the build time on this special is the same as for advanced concussive payload while providing better performance and lower weight.
    ^
    |
    |
    that's called value!
    ^
    |
    |
    that's called sarcasm

    I'm not sure if you are goofing, or if you took offence there. None was intended. you initially stated the strike was better, and then stated it could be a bug. I said I think the new special should be better based on stats. so we were both right, it is better and it is a bug.

    And I already agreed. The new special is better. Just a shame it has the same build time as special from a time when builds were generally higher and supposedly reduced now. doesn't look reduced to me, looks exactly the same lol
    yes..I am goofing
    we are getting a new special (torpedo tubes) that has better stats for the same build time as the existing special (advanced concussive payload).
    better stats, same build time = better value...and I say that sarcastically because I agree that a 2-day build time on a special is excessive.

    Yes, I stated strike warheads was better because that's what both Huggys and the Shipyard were saying at the time
    It was then announced that this was a bug, and that the torpedo tubes would offer better performance.
    I assumed that would negate any statement made before that announcement - but, if needed then yes,....I was wrong.
  • Proteus-606
    Proteus-606
    Master Tactician
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 2,195
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    all I know is that when you substitute strike warheads for the new special in either the ship yard or Huggy's, damage goes up
    I don't know why, I am not a Kixeye math wizard, it could very well be a bug
    but even it it did increase torp damage by what I think should be 70%, it will always come down to the same thing it does with any build...is the extra damage sufficiently valuable to account for the increased build time?
    To some it may be, to others not.
    but I don't think this one special needs to become a referendum on build times in general.
    tbh, I think build times have stayed relatively stable on the PvE side.
    As things get stronger, you should expect some increase in whatever price you're paying (be it time, coin, etc)
    I am glad I am won't be having to build or even refit my FM fleet any time soon (for example) and therefore think a build time of 12-16 days, shortened by the occasional FM or reduced rate token, for a hull that will last a year is pretty fair.  
    You are pretty hot on forum knowledge, so you probably already know this, but just in case, we were both right, the special is better and it was a bug.

    The new special is definitely the way to go.
    yeah, mate...I conceded that in my last response.
    but I also pointed out that the build time on this special is the same as for advanced concussive payload while providing better performance and lower weight.
    ^
    |
    |
    that's called value!
    ^
    |
    |
    that's called sarcasm

    I'm not sure if you are goofing, or if you took offence there. None was intended. you initially stated the strike was better, and then stated it could be a bug. I said I think the new special should be better based on stats. so we were both right, it is better and it is a bug.

    And I already agreed. The new special is better. Just a shame it has the same build time as special from a time when builds were generally higher and supposedly reduced now. doesn't look reduced to me, looks exactly the same lol
    yes..I am goofing
    we are getting a new special (torpedo tubes) that has better stats for the same build time as the existing special (advanced concussive payload).
    better stats, same build time = better value...and I say that sarcastically because I agree that a 2-day build time on a special is excessive.

    Yes, I stated strike warheads was better because that's what both Huggys and the Shipyard were saying at the time
    It was then announced that this was a bug, and that the torpedo tubes would offer better performance.
    I assumed that would negate any statement made before that announcement - but, if needed then yes,....I was wrong.
    Sorry bud, not trying to get you to admit anything. Just making sure I got what you meant. sometimes the written word can come across differently to how it was intended. I figured that is what you meant, but thought I'd check considering all our previous "debates" lol
    Coming Soon in Kixeye land means "When Satan need to put the heating on"
  • GrumpyReign
    GrumpyReign
    Master Tactician
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 2,360
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    all I know is that when you substitute strike warheads for the new special in either the ship yard or Huggy's, damage goes up
    I don't know why, I am not a Kixeye math wizard, it could very well be a bug
    but even it it did increase torp damage by what I think should be 70%, it will always come down to the same thing it does with any build...is the extra damage sufficiently valuable to account for the increased build time?
    To some it may be, to others not.
    but I don't think this one special needs to become a referendum on build times in general.
    tbh, I think build times have stayed relatively stable on the PvE side.
    As things get stronger, you should expect some increase in whatever price you're paying (be it time, coin, etc)
    I am glad I am won't be having to build or even refit my FM fleet any time soon (for example) and therefore think a build time of 12-16 days, shortened by the occasional FM or reduced rate token, for a hull that will last a year is pretty fair.  
    I disagree slightly on the increased time as things get tougher. The problem is with that strategy, we will end up where we did before, having builds in excess of 20 days and they can only continue to climb. Also the hull isn't really tougher, as it is tailored to a particular new target, in which it isn't tougher really, because it is the only true option (or one of two, at least) for that target anyway.
    Ideally, I'd like to see a cap at 14 days max for standard hulls and perhaps a rolling reduction in obsolete/near obsolete tech to help newer players catch up.
    You are right, one special shouldn't be used to bemoan all build times, but unchecked it becomes a slippery ****, so I feel it's worth mentioning.
    I also agree that for the most part, builds have been fairly stable in the last 6 months, which is good. As I said above though, unchecked things can get out of hand, so raising a flag about it can't hurt.
    Only time will tell if the 16 day build will actually be enough in the new cycle, it may end up that the hull needs full armour, and therefore a longer build. Hopefully it will be enough, in which case 16 isn't the worst, but I still think 14 would be much more balanced.
    It is good once they are built and knowing you won't need to touch them for 10 months or so though. I'm with you on that one for sure.
    wait, why?
    You need to read his post too. What he was saying is, if it's tougher, builds need to go up. but the problem is, builds continuously get tougher, so build times would need to keep going up too. that strategy doesn't work. It's what got us into the last 20 day+ build times.

    Tech isn't actually tougher. Sure, it is tougher than the class hull that came before it, but that is irrelevant. It isn't tougher than the latest targets it's intended to hit. It's just right at best. so why should it take longer to build, if it is is essentially just as good at doing it's targets as it's predecessor was at doing their targets?
    the bolded, italicized part about build times: "...and they can only continue to climb."
    I can feel you judging me. That's palpable. But, hey, I never said I was the hero of this story.
  • Proteus-606
    Proteus-606
    Master Tactician
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 2,195
    well, it's actually about 20% less than a 20 day build
    and...the switch to strike warheads that saves you two days of build time actually appears to increase damage/dps
    the fire-twister and mayhem torps both have longer build times than the delerium
    the fangtooth has a shorter base build time than either of the previous skirmish hulls...
    and while the repair time is 77% longer than the HW, the armor on the base hull is 127% greater

    oh, am I trolling again?

    I think I might see what you mean. I hadn't fully studied the stats yet, as I'm only building blanks right now, but if I'm reading it right, the new special looks a lot like garbage!?!?!

    It seems it does a flat rate torpedo damage of 70, rather than 70% increase to damage, as it appeared at first glance. I could be wrong.
    Can you or anyone else confirm this? If that is the case, then we may well be able to cut the build time down a lot by avoiding that "special"

    I'll miss those 15 mil points though! lol
    all I know is that when you substitute strike warheads for the new special in either the ship yard or Huggy's, damage goes up
    I don't know why, I am not a Kixeye math wizard, it could very well be a bug
    but even it it did increase torp damage by what I think should be 70%, it will always come down to the same thing it does with any build...is the extra damage sufficiently valuable to account for the increased build time?
    To some it may be, to others not.
    but I don't think this one special needs to become a referendum on build times in general.
    tbh, I think build times have stayed relatively stable on the PvE side.
    As things get stronger, you should expect some increase in whatever price you're paying (be it time, coin, etc)
    I am glad I am won't be having to build or even refit my FM fleet any time soon (for example) and therefore think a build time of 12-16 days, shortened by the occasional FM or reduced rate token, for a hull that will last a year is pretty fair.  
    I disagree slightly on the increased time as things get tougher. The problem is with that strategy, we will end up where we did before, having builds in excess of 20 days and they can only continue to climb. Also the hull isn't really tougher, as it is tailored to a particular new target, in which it isn't tougher really, because it is the only true option (or one of two, at least) for that target anyway.
    Ideally, I'd like to see a cap at 14 days max for standard hulls and perhaps a rolling reduction in obsolete/near obsolete tech to help newer players catch up.
    You are right, one special shouldn't be used to bemoan all build times, but unchecked it becomes a slippery ****, so I feel it's worth mentioning.
    I also agree that for the most part, builds have been fairly stable in the last 6 months, which is good. As I said above though, unchecked things can get out of hand, so raising a flag about it can't hurt.
    Only time will tell if the 16 day build will actually be enough in the new cycle, it may end up that the hull needs full armour, and therefore a longer build. Hopefully it will be enough, in which case 16 isn't the worst, but I still think 14 would be much more balanced.
    It is good once they are built and knowing you won't need to touch them for 10 months or so though. I'm with you on that one for sure.
    wait, why?
    You need to read his post too. What he was saying is, if it's tougher, builds need to go up. but the problem is, builds continuously get tougher, so build times would need to keep going up too. that strategy doesn't work. It's what got us into the last 20 day+ build times.

    Tech isn't actually tougher. Sure, it is tougher than the class hull that came before it, but that is irrelevant. It isn't tougher than the latest targets it's intended to hit. It's just right at best. so why should it take longer to build, if it is is essentially just as good at doing it's targets as it's predecessor was at doing their targets?
    the bolded, italicized part about build times: "...and they can only continue to climb."
    I noticed that after I replied and I have edited and explained what I meant above. If you always make the best new thing take longer than the last things, then builds would just continue to grow. 
    Coming Soon in Kixeye land means "When Satan need to put the heating on"
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