@zparadis I suspect that it was brought to their attention when people started questioning why the Xeno Armored Thrusters did not get the same reduction as the Xeno Armored hold or the Xeno Disintegrator cannons. But that's just me speculating.
@strider365 When we got free refits for ships after the great rebalance we could refit without having to use the factory. My guess is the same system is used now.
It's already baked in to the release - we're ripping the bandaid off now. Better to get it out of the way and move forward rather than let this hang over the game for a month.
@strider365 When we got free refits for ships after the great rebalance we could refit without having to use the factory. My guess is the same system is used now.
@Aletheides said: @strider365 When we got free refits for ships after the great rebalance we could refit without having to use the factory. My guess is the same system is used now.
Are you sure? I seem to remember that we had to use the factory - yes, free except for res costs and instant, but you could not do it with a build underway.
I still have some overmassed ships from that period and I can't refit them now whilst my Supressor build is undeway.
@Aletheides said: @strider365 When we got free refits for ships after the great rebalance we could refit without having to use the factory. My guess is the same system is used now.
Correction - it can, just tested again, but I seem to remember I could not last time cos I had a rag build underway and had to wait a week....
@zparadis said:
How are you so certain that they knew about this "bug" for months now? It was only recently that the XD getting the mass reduction was even mentioned on the forums. Players loved that about it, and thought it was a feature, so they didn't complain about it.
>
It wasnt a bug it was intentionally designed to be this way by kix. It is the reason why only punishers were allowed to use disintegrator cannons. It is the reason kix had so little punisher craft available to be farmed and why kix kept selling punisher craft deals. Top Gear asked kix about this months ago and put it in vegashipcalc. Kix gets data from every event fleet hit, what ships hit it and how much damage they take. Kix has been buffing event fleets the whole season because of the punishers. Kix cant pretend they didnt know about it when they are the ones that did the programming. But even if you believe Chris that kix didnt know about it what does the "bug" matter now? Xeno is over. The only reason to nerf punishers now is to force the players to coin build a lot of 6.5 ships.
@CM Chris
In a past post made by you, you said that the mass reduction of xeno disintegrators on mk punishers was working as intended.
Now you say it's a bug that has to be fixed...
Interesting...
Maybe your tests showed that a mk punisher always win against the new fancy AXIS cruiser and so you suddenly had to change a "feature" into a "bug" to make sure the new cruiser won't be a piece of crap when it will come out?
They should have fixed this on launch of the weapon. Way back in march. People have bought crafting deals based on the punisher cruiser as is. I know everything is subject to change. However you can bet that there will be many players who will not qualify for a free refit that will have to refit.
They should give a free refit on every punisher cruiser that is over a specific mass level and not just over massed. 50% of total mass should be about right. Otherwise you are also penalising players for upgrading ships and getting a higher maximum mass.
This update is coming maybe we should push a request for refits on more than just over massed ships. Because that does not cover all the players affected by this issue
The problem with this game is the power curves. Just look at the graphs I made. Said no vega conflict player ever
Well, we always knew kixeye never playtests or explains their releases, hence the heaps of weapons and ships that don't get used.
Not the first time too to be honest. Remember when they nerfed the stormdriver turrets after release to just short of destroyer range? Making it useless to counter sniping fleets? And since many players did a mass change at that time, their bases were temporarily left defenseless to destroyers.
Kixeye should make all their designers sit down and play the game for a week, then in the future, when they suggest a change, force the guy who suggests the change play his build and see if it works.
Are they required to strictly follow some fundamental "laws of game mechanics"?
Armor is armor... Right?, why can't this just be left alone??
U cannot make exceptions to armored thrusters just cuz.....
The "it's not a bug, it's a feature!" joke in game development holds water in some cases, but in most situations building off a broken system only comes back to haunt you later. If there's a bug, usually good to do your best to fix it.
In the Xeno season, there was a fairly legitimate argument to be made that the Punisher was equally good at accomplishing everything the specialized ships set out to do better. Cruisers are meant to be good general ships, but they're not meant to be so good that they're on the same level at the specific thing specialized attack ships are meant to be great at.
We had chalked it up to an unfortunate misstep when we first made the Punisher but it turns out a big part of the situation had to do with how powerful you could make the Punisher due to this bug. I could list lots of reasons as to why it took so long for that bug to make it onto our radar - but they'd all sound like excuses. Suffice to say - it just did.
So while the Xeno season was going, players had a bit of an edge. Build other ships if you want but primarily just focus on the one. That's not what we intended. So the bug needs to get fixed, first and foremost to not build off a broken system, secondly to draw the lines more clearly between the generalist and the specialized attack ships back to how they were always intended to be.
I know it's a painful change. The game team knows it too. Hopefully the free refits and the extended refit discount period minimizes the disruption as much as possible.
the bonus was effective for the whole season and its very unlikely you guys did not recognize. Every player using a xdc was aware of that bonus.... You did a great job in the last months, better communication, addressing player requests, interesting content...why are you doing this bs now?
From my point of view, this looks more like a nerf to make the punisher less efficient in the next season.
Anyway, hope you will also make some xdc 1 available (and cheap!), i didn't care to get some because of the armor bonus. Now, i guess, they are needed in great numbers
don't make me regret buying the punisher deal, when it came the first time.
thanks top gear. i can see its actually a lil worse then i thought it would be, i will need to reduce my dps by 50% to keep close to the overall health i previously had. wonderful splendid lmao
They should have fixed this on launch of the weapon. Way back in march. People have bought crafting deals based on the punisher cruiser as is. I know everything is subject to change. However you can bet that there will be many players who will not qualify for a free refit that will have to refit.
They should give a free refit on every punisher cruiser that is over a specific mass level and not just over massed. 50% of total mass should be about right. Otherwise you are also penalising players for upgrading ships and getting a higher maximum mass.
This update is coming maybe we should push a request for refits on more than just over massed ships. Because that does not cover all the players affected by this issue
This is indeed what will happen to a lot of us, we are not flying with max mass punisher but with a fleet that just fits within the mass of the fleetbay, in my case fleetbay 13. Meaning of the mass of the punishers increases, it will most likely stay below max ship mass but my fleet is void and needs to be refitted. No free refit for ships I built with coins and based on what Kix put into the game. So I very much agree with TopGear that all punishers above a certain % of their max mass should get a gree refit too. 50% would be nice but 75% will do the job too I think.
Well, we always knew kixeye never playtests or explains their releases, hence the heaps of weapons and ships that don't get used.
Not the first time too to be honest. Remember when they nerfed the stormdriver turrets after release to just short of destroyer range? Making it useless to counter sniping fleets? And since many players did a mass change at that time, their bases were temporarily left defenseless to destroyers.
Kixeye should make all their designers sit down and play the game for a week, then in the future, when they suggest a change, force the guy who suggests the change play his build and see if it works.
Sorry, they knew it would not work. Bases are to be destroyed. It is to force coining. One can never get settled down and play because Kix introduces some factor that has to be added or nerfs the old setup completely. This has been the pattern.
@Mr TopGear said:
Due to the XDC nerf (bug fix) being a hot topic. I have altered ship calc to how it will be after the patch
My mk3 punisher is now 1133 overweight using your calc, madness. Can't even fit 4 xeno dc level 2 to a elite pun without sacrificing armor. What planet are kixeye on cos it ain't planet earth!
Due to the XDC nerf (bug fix) being a hot topic. I have altered ship calc to how it will be after the patch
My mk3 punisher is now 1133 overweight using your calc, madness. Can't even fit 4 xeno dc level 2 to a elite pun without sacrificing armor. What planet are kixeye on cos it ain't planet earth!
The planet where punishers tanks damage and you use the damage focused xeno hulls to deal damage. With insta fit credit you now have the chance to fit whatever xeno weapon you want to it instantly if its damage output you want. But both high DPS and high armor? Thats not going to happen it seems.
Are they required to strictly follow some fundamental "laws of game mechanics"?
Armor is armor... Right?, why can't this just be left alone??
U cannot make exceptions to armored thrusters just cuz.....
The "it's not a bug, it's a feature!" joke in game development holds water in some cases, but in most situations building off a broken system only comes back to haunt you later. If there's a bug, usually good to do your best to fix it.
In the Xeno season, there was a fairly legitimate argument to be made that the Punisher was equally good at accomplishing everything the specialized ships set out to do better. Cruisers are meant to be good general ships, but they're not meant to be so good that they're on the same level at the specific thing specialized attack ships are meant to be great at.
We had chalked it up to an unfortunate misstep when we first made the Punisher but it turns out a big part of the situation had to do with how powerful you could make the Punisher due to this bug. I could list lots of reasons as to why it took so long for that bug to make it onto our radar - but they'd all sound like excuses. Suffice to say - it just did.
So while the Xeno season was going, players had a bit of an edge. Build other ships if you want but primarily just focus on the one. That's not what we intended. So the bug needs to get fixed, first and foremost to not build off a broken system, secondly to draw the lines more clearly between the generalist and the specialized attack ships back to how they were always intended to be.
I know it's a painful change. The game team knows it too. Hopefully the free refits and the extended refit discount period minimizes the disruption as much as possible.
This all you wrote oh great cm is a lame excuse.
You cant tell anyone that it takes 6 months to discover and "fix" it... Your so called bug is just an excuse to make our ships worthless now while buffing your precious event fleets. You decrease point after point in the payout of them as well.
I remember that morning when i got in game and saw that the skirmish armor was nerfed to death... Never saw so much anger hate and fire in the rebels that play your game on this forum. Kixeye got back on it then... But did they learn? No. Maybe there should be more voices here... More ppl that simply have enough of this destruction you bring to your game.
I think this will be the last month i'll play this game.
Building on a broken system you said chris (am sure its not your words that you have to bring to us but you are in the worst position: between greedeye and the furious player base) but the system got broken long time ago.
Will see this month how broken it is but its looking severly wounded and only barely ablw to stand. And kixeye is the guy above their own child about to kill it with the final blow.
How are you so certain that they knew about this "bug" for months now? It was only recently that the XD getting the mass reduction was even mentioned on the forums. Players loved that about it, and thought it was a feature, so they didn't complain about it.
>
It wasnt a bug it was intentionally designed to be this way by kix. It is the reason why only punishers were allowed to use disintegrator cannons. It is the reason kix had so little punisher craft available to be farmed and why kix kept selling punisher craft deals. Top Gear asked kix about this months ago and put it in vegashipcalc. Kix gets data from every event fleet hit, what ships hit it and how much damage they take. Kix has been buffing event fleets the whole season because of the punishers. Kix cant pretend they didnt know about it when they are the ones that did the programming. But even if you believe Chris that kix didnt know about it what does the "bug" matter now? Xeno is over. The only reason to nerf punishers now is to force the players to coin build a lot of 6.5 ships.
In a past post made by you, you said that the mass reduction of xeno disintegrators on mk punishers was working as intended.
Now you say it's a bug that has to be fixed...
Interesting...
Maybe your tests showed that a mk punisher always win against the new fancy AXIS cruiser and so you suddenly had to change a "feature" into a "bug" to make sure the new cruiser won't be a piece of crap when it will come out?
Or... they finally realized that the punisher is way too powerful. there was no point to building the other xeno ships, and now they are fixing that bug.
and yes, it would take this long to figure that out without playtesting, because they would have had to release every target, and see how the players react. this doesn't point to them wanting to screw with us, this points to them not testing anything they release, which is still not good, but you are also just being dicks about this. relax, its just a game.
Ok....it is bad enough I was never going to be able to get all the Xeno stuff built, refit, mk upgraded, refit again, etc. before next tier.... I hated that, but I decided, oh well, I have a few pretty good ships out of this. Could be worse, right?...was I ever correct.
I now see, that the Pun is getting essentially, a massive nerf - don't call it a bug, that's just cowardly spin. This is the ship that took forever to get mk upgrades for. The weapon affected is the same everyone has been begging for/demanding, and it was finally offered for coins. Now it is going to be "fixed" as to be no longer a viable option.
I waited and worked on a fleet of mk'ed Puns for 6 months with a few other Xeno hulls built here and there, and Kix just decided to ruin it then lie about why.
This forum is lit up with posts and comments full of anger. What is wrong with you Kix? You know this is a big deal and a bad change yet you defend your position through @cm Chris by stating it's a bug and Kix needs to fix bugs....ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!...You almost never fix the things that are asked for - including known bugs. When you do, it is after months and months or over a year in some cases of people posting on the problem.
You know your players don't trust you. You know the game is drying up. Your blatant money grabbing in the face of all this change (which makes the game stagnant and dumb) is deplorable.
How are you so certain that they knew about this "bug" for months now? It was only recently that the XD getting the mass reduction was even mentioned on the forums. Players loved that about it, and thought it was a feature, so they didn't complain about it.
>
It wasnt a bug it was intentionally designed to be this way by kix. It is the reason why only punishers were allowed to use disintegrator cannons. It is the reason kix had so little punisher craft available to be farmed and why kix kept selling punisher craft deals. Top Gear asked kix about this months ago and put it in vegashipcalc. Kix gets data from every event fleet hit, what ships hit it and how much damage they take. Kix has been buffing event fleets the whole season because of the punishers. Kix cant pretend they didnt know about it when they are the ones that did the programming. But even if you believe Chris that kix didnt know about it what does the "bug" matter now? Xeno is over. The only reason to nerf punishers now is to force the players to coin build a lot of 6.5 ships.
In a past post made by you, you said that the mass reduction of xeno disintegrators on mk punishers was working as intended.
Now you say it's a bug that has to be fixed...
Interesting...
Maybe your tests showed that a mk punisher always win against the new fancy AXIS cruiser and so you suddenly had to change a "feature" into a "bug" to make sure the new cruiser won't be a piece of crap when it will come out?
Or... they finally realized that the punisher is way too powerful. there was no point to building the other xeno ships, and now they are fixing that bug.
and yes, it would take this long to figure that out without playtesting, because they would have had to release every target, and see how the players react. this doesn't point to them wanting to screw with us, this points to them not testing anything they release, which is still not good, but you are also just being dicks about this. relax, its just a game.
I was one of those that was questioning it too, so I can actually believe that one.
Seems a few others can't help but think that kix is just trying to screw them over
Its been happening the whole time. That's what kix is all about.
No, it hasn't. if it was, there would be a lot less players.
Even if you are correct and they just figured this out, it is complete garbage to fix in this way, which negatively affects the player base. They should be making this right...and no a free refit or extended 50% discount period does not qualify as making it right...better yet, they should have left it alone
I was one of those that was questioning it too, so I can actually believe that one.
Seems a few others can't help but think that kix is just trying to screw them over
I will ask a third one to ask ,,,do we have an Answer, I also have a long build happening
@LetThereBeLight said:
@cm Chris
I have a very long Dom swarm build that has 19 days left on the clock.
My punishers are maxed out by weight.
Will I be able to do a free refit if my factory is busy?
If not, will I be able to launch my punishers until i can do the free refit?
I need my punishers for the events so what will happen? will I be able to use them for events?
I hope I don't have to wait for my Dom to finish building... That would be ridiculous cuz I need my punishers for the events
Uhh.... What about the last 6 MONTHS!?!
I wonder why... Hmm..
I hope so....Just hasn't been said or confirmed
Are you sure? I seem to remember that we had to use the factory - yes, free except for res costs and instant, but you could not do it with a build underway.
I still have some overmassed ships from that period and I can't refit them now whilst my Supressor build is undeway.
Correction - it can, just tested again, but I seem to remember I could not last time cos I had a rag build underway and had to wait a week....
>
It wasnt a bug it was intentionally designed to be this way by kix. It is the reason why only punishers were allowed to use disintegrator cannons. It is the reason kix had so little punisher craft available to be farmed and why kix kept selling punisher craft deals. Top Gear asked kix about this months ago and put it in vegashipcalc. Kix gets data from every event fleet hit, what ships hit it and how much damage they take. Kix has been buffing event fleets the whole season because of the punishers. Kix cant pretend they didnt know about it when they are the ones that did the programming. But even if you believe Chris that kix didnt know about it what does the "bug" matter now? Xeno is over. The only reason to nerf punishers now is to force the players to coin build a lot of 6.5 ships.
@CM Chris
In a past post made by you, you said that the mass reduction of xeno disintegrators on mk punishers was working as intended.
Now you say it's a bug that has to be fixed...
Interesting...
Maybe your tests showed that a mk punisher always win against the new fancy AXIS cruiser and so you suddenly had to change a "feature" into a "bug" to make sure the new cruiser won't be a piece of crap when it will come out?
They should give a free refit on every punisher cruiser that is over a specific mass level and not just over massed. 50% of total mass should be about right. Otherwise you are also penalising players for upgrading ships and getting a higher maximum mass.
This update is coming maybe we should push a request for refits on more than just over massed ships. Because that does not cover all the players affected by this issue
Not the first time too to be honest. Remember when they nerfed the stormdriver turrets after release to just short of destroyer range? Making it useless to counter sniping fleets? And since many players did a mass change at that time, their bases were temporarily left defenseless to destroyers.
Kixeye should make all their designers sit down and play the game for a week, then in the future, when they suggest a change, force the guy who suggests the change play his build and see if it works.
the bonus was effective for the whole season and its very unlikely you guys did not recognize.
Every player using a xdc was aware of that bonus....
You did a great job in the last months, better communication, addressing player requests, interesting content...why are you doing this bs now?
From my point of view, this looks more like a nerf to make the punisher less efficient in the next season.
Anyway, hope you will also make some xdc 1 available (and cheap!), i didn't care to get some because of the armor bonus.
Now, i guess, they are needed in great numbers
don't make me regret buying the punisher deal, when it came the first time.
This is indeed what will happen to a lot of us, we are not flying with max mass punisher but with a fleet that just fits within the mass of the fleetbay, in my case fleetbay 13. Meaning of the mass of the punishers increases, it will most likely stay below max ship mass but my fleet is void and needs to be refitted. No free refit for ships I built with coins and based on what Kix put into the game. So I very much agree with TopGear that all punishers above a certain % of their max mass should get a gree refit too. 50% would be nice but 75% will do the job too I think.
@CM Chris, this really should be considered.
Sorry, they knew it would not work. Bases are to be destroyed. It is to force coining. One can never get settled down and play because Kix introduces some factor that has to be added or nerfs the old setup completely. This has been the pattern.
Maybe launch again the binary thruster ? It could be good for low or mid player
My mk3 punisher is now 1133 overweight using your calc, madness. Can't even fit 4 xeno dc level 2 to a elite pun without sacrificing armor. What planet are kixeye on cos it ain't planet earth!
The planet where punishers tanks damage and you use the damage focused xeno hulls to deal damage. With insta fit credit you now have the chance to fit whatever xeno weapon you want to it instantly if its damage output you want. But both high DPS and high armor? Thats not going to happen it seems.
3 weeks and not one pattern box. I will no longer spend money on this game. You have gotten way out of hand.
Its been happening the whole time. That's what kix is all about.
This all you wrote oh great cm is a lame excuse.
You cant tell anyone that it takes 6 months to discover and "fix" it... Your so called bug is just an excuse to make our ships worthless now while buffing your precious event fleets. You decrease point after point in the payout of them as well.
I remember that morning when i got in game and saw that the skirmish armor was nerfed to death... Never saw so much anger hate and fire in the rebels that play your game on this forum. Kixeye got back on it then... But did they learn? No. Maybe there should be more voices here... More ppl that simply have enough of this destruction you bring to your game.
I think this will be the last month i'll play this game.
Building on a broken system you said chris (am sure its not your words that you have to bring to us but you are in the worst position: between greedeye and the furious player base) but the system got broken long time ago.
Will see this month how broken it is but its looking severly wounded and only barely ablw to stand. And kixeye is the guy above their own child about to kill it with the final blow.
Wait... you jailed MrTopGear? Are you kidding, right?
wtf
Or... they finally realized that the punisher is way too powerful. there was no point to building the other xeno ships, and now they are fixing that bug.
and yes, it would take this long to figure that out without playtesting, because they would have had to release every target, and see how the players react. this doesn't point to them wanting to screw with us, this points to them not testing anything they release, which is still not good, but you are also just being dicks about this. relax, its just a game.
No, it hasn't. if it was, there would be a lot less players.
Ok....it is bad enough I was never going to be able to get all the Xeno stuff built, refit, mk upgraded, refit again, etc. before next tier.... I hated that, but I decided, oh well, I have a few pretty good ships out of this. Could be worse, right?...was I ever correct.
I now see, that the Pun is getting essentially, a massive nerf - don't call it a bug, that's just cowardly spin. This is the ship that took forever to get mk upgrades for. The weapon affected is the same everyone has been begging for/demanding, and it was finally offered for coins. Now it is going to be "fixed" as to be no longer a viable option.
I waited and worked on a fleet of mk'ed Puns for 6 months with a few other Xeno hulls built here and there, and Kix just decided to ruin it then lie about why.
This forum is lit up with posts and comments full of anger. What is wrong with you Kix? You know this is a big deal and a bad change yet you defend your position through @cm Chris by stating it's a bug and Kix needs to fix bugs....ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!...You almost never fix the things that are asked for - including known bugs. When you do, it is after months and months or over a year in some cases of people posting on the problem.
You know your players don't trust you. You know the game is drying up. Your blatant money grabbing in the face of all this change (which makes the game stagnant and dumb) is deplorable.
I could rant on for days but what's the point?
Even if you are correct and they just figured this out, it is complete garbage to fix in this way, which negatively affects the player base. They should be making this right...and no a free refit or extended 50% discount period does not qualify as making it right...better yet, they should have left it alone