@cmchris , the free refit for overweight punishers will definitely help mitigate the overweight ships for high level players.
However, I think there are a large group of players who use non-max weight punishers due to fleet bay restrictions. They cannot make use of fullly fit punishers, because doing so would limit them to 1 or 2 punishers instead of 3 or 4.These players will not get a free refit, but they will potentially be required to refit in order to make their fleet mass acceptable.
Does that make sense? Is there a plan to help those players?
The typical 20% Refit Discount period that runs for 24 hours has been extended to 48 hours and is now a 50% Refit Discount. See July Content Calendar for reference.
Are aware that with that "bug" fix you are penalizing non coiners? Even if there is a free refit for overweight ships will only fix the issue for players that have MK6 punishers, for those that are marking up them, it will imply that they will have to review the complete built of the punishers, and will fall even further behind to other players... Not well thought and unnecessary bug fix, players should have been warned in advance that there was a bug and let them plan ahead
If kix wants to massively buff mass of weapons and specials then kix needs to give use free craft tokens so the players can immediately craft their punishers to mk5 so we dont all get hosed. Anything less than this is just bait and switch.
Are they required to strictly follow some fundamental "laws of game mechanics"?
Armor is armor... Right?, why can't this just be left alone??
U cannot make exceptions to armored thrusters just cuz.....
The "it's not a bug, it's a feature!" joke in game development holds water in some cases, but in most situations building off a broken system only comes back to haunt you later. If there's a bug, usually good to do your best to fix it.
In the Xeno season, there was a fairly legitimate argument to be made that the Punisher was equally good at accomplishing everything the specialized ships set out to do better. Cruisers are meant to be good general ships, but they're not meant to be so good that they're on the same level at the specific thing specialized attack ships are meant to be great at.
We had chalked it up to an unfortunate misstep when we first made the Punisher but it turns out a big part of the situation had to do with how powerful you could make the Punisher due to this bug. I could list lots of reasons as to why it took so long for that bug to make it onto our radar - but they'd all sound like excuses. Suffice to say - it just did.
So while the Xeno season was going, players had a bit of an edge. Build other ships if you want but primarily just focus on the one. That's not what we intended. So the bug needs to get fixed, first and foremost to not build off a broken system, secondly to draw the lines more clearly between the generalist and the specialized attack ships back to how they were always intended to be.
I know it's a painful change. The game team knows it too. Hopefully the free refits and the extended refit discount period minimizes the disruption as much as possible.
Are they required to strictly follow some fundamental "laws of game mechanics"?
Armor is armor... Right?, why can't this just be left alone??
U cannot make exceptions to armored thrusters just cuz.....
The "it's not a bug, it's a feature!" joke in game development holds water in some cases, but in most situations building off a broken system only comes back to haunt you later. If there's a bug, usually good to do your best to fix it.
Many years ago Microsoft made a bug or two (just kidding, make lots of bug, but I want to talk about 2 of them). One was in Windows XP (or maybe event 95) in RichtextBox in the way it behaves in some circumstances and another in Excel in the way it computes leap year. They was obvious bugs but before Microsoft fixed those bugs people get used to them and started to workaround them. Since them fixing the bug would make lots of other bugs because of workarounds, so Microsoft left those bugs until now and they become features.
Punishers are quite a long time with them, they are very universal and we really like them as they are. Currently A.X.I.S. is coming and I don't see the reason for making punisheres less powerful. They are just right even if this wasn't intended. Let this be a really feature.
P.S. 50% refit discount is really great anyway. I'll be able to equip my suppressor with xeno weapons finally.
Are they required to strictly follow some fundamental "laws of game mechanics"?
Armor is armor... Right?, why can't this just be left alone??
U cannot make exceptions to armored thrusters just cuz.....
The "it's not a bug, it's a feature!" joke in game development holds water in some cases, but in most situations building off a broken system only comes back to haunt you later. If there's a bug, usually good to do your best to fix it.
In the Xeno season, there was a fairly legitimate argument to be made that the Punisher was equally good at accomplishing everything the specialized ships set out to do better. Cruisers are meant to be good general ships, but they're not meant to be so good that they're on the same level at the specific thing specialized attack ships are meant to be great at.
We had chalked it up to an unfortunate misstep when we first made the Punisher but it turns out a big part of the situation had to do with how powerful you could make the Punisher due to this bug. I could list lots of reasons as to why it took so long for that bug to make it onto our radar - but they'd all sound like excuses. Suffice to say - it just did.
So while the Xeno season was going, players had a bit of an edge. Build other ships if you want but primarily just focus on the one. That's not what we intended. So the bug needs to get fixed, first and foremost to not build off a broken system, secondly to draw the lines more clearly between the generalist and the specialized attack ships back to how they were always intended to be.
I know it's a painful change. The game team knows it too. Hopefully the free refits and the extended refit discount period minimizes the disruption as much as possible.
I can understand that the team needs to fix the punishers versatility. Totally understandable.
I just wish that we got an earlier notification cuz we the players plan a lot.
For example:
I have a build that I wanted to start tonight (blank hull) and have it finish on the 5th, so that I could utilize the refit discount period for some xeno lvl 2 refits. Coining the specials during the discount period and then starting one right before it ends.
1) Now I won't be able to start the blank hull, cuz I will need to refit my puns so that they fit in my FB12.
2) I won't be able to utilize the discount for the xeno refit that I had planned. Unless I coin the blank hull...
3) I won't be able to participate in the ancient reaper preview unless I refit everything before that.
I don't think reducing armor (by increasing mass) is gonna make the pun any less versatile/effective and have a significant impact in a short period in July?
Please see if this change can happen in the next down time.
It looks less like a bug fix and more like a game alteration.
@cm chris
This is a game alteration AND NOT A "BUG" and you know it. Make the punisher weaker and then release the new cruiser, which will be bigger and better. But only the mega coiners will benefit. You want us to trust you but time and time again you screw us over.
If this was a bug that the dev team knew about, why didn't kixeye say something a month ago. Don't answer that, because you was busy collecting our money from the punisher builds we was doing.
Trust broken, again. This company is so GREEDY and full of ****.
I don't think reducing armor (by increasing mass) is gonna make the pun any less versatile/effective and have a significant impact in a short period in July?
Please see if this change can happen in the next down time.
It's already baked in to the release - we're ripping the bandaid off now. Better to get it out of the way and move forward rather than let this hang over the game for a month.
@CM Chris in the "minor fixes" part of this update, will there be a fix for the suppressor not targeting a squadron whenever a ship comes into range? Meaning making it possible for the suppressor to target 1 ship and 1 squadron at the same time? One can be hopeful
@CM Chris in the "minor fixes" part of this update, will there be a fix for the suppressor not targeting a squadron whenever a ship comes into range? Meaning making it possible for the suppressor to target 1 ship and 1 squadron at the same time? One can be hopeful
Not that I'm aware of - but that is a functionality change the design team is pushing for. Priority targets get a little weird when you add Targeting Computer into the mix and the end intention is to have Suppressor able to target 1 ship and 1 squadron or maybe even only target squadrons even if another ship is in range.
I don't think reducing armor (by increasing mass) is gonna make the pun any less versatile/effective and have a significant impact in a short period in July?
Please see if this change can happen in the next down time.
It's already baked in to the release - we're ripping the bandaid off now. Better to get it out of the way and move forward rather than let this hang over the game for a month.
That is such utter bs chris. There is no reason but greed for kix to nerf punishers. If there was a mistake it was kix's. Why are we punished for your mistake? Clearly the way punishers are now is not game breaking as we have gone a full season with them like this. We have spent months building punishers. Many have spent hundreds of dollars building them. Then you do bait and switch nerf right before next tier is released. Shame on you chris and shame on kix. Dont you pretend that this punisher nerf was necessary and that you are doing us a favor by shafting all of the players. Why should anyone give kix one more penny? What incentive do we have when you time and time again do bait and switch on your customers? You dont even apologize for nerfing our ships with little warning, little recompense and even less reason.
Hi Chris, it would be good if the alien bases 40 - 50 can change the ship prizes that is currently the damocles, it could be very good for beginners to get another helmet from the same company...I put an image to understand better, it would be good to change each ship's event https://prnt.sc/fq70u2
do the minor fixes include a fix for for the names of ships under construction not showing up in the alliance help menu? what about a way to tag fleets in the alien sector?
One more question and I'm sorry for annoying you but does that mean after the bug is fixed with the punishers does that mean that the repair times will go down?
No mention of the reduced build times of tier 5 and below in the notes? This was mentioned in a previous post about coming changes. Is this still on the cards? @Cm"Chris"
We had chalked it up to an unfortunate misstep when we first made the Punisher but it turns out a big part of the situation had to do with how powerful you could make the Punisher due to this bug. I could list lots of reasons as to why it took so long for that bug to make it onto our radar - but they'd all sound like excuses. Suffice to say - it just did.
I dunno why it took you guys so long I added this in ship calc here on the 5th of march and queried it several times on the forums.
Same thing with armoured thrusters on cov cruisers here. Still never found out why this was never fixed. Same mass bonus. different ship mass. Might only be a few mass off but its still wrong
The problem with this game is the power curves. Just look at the graphs I made. Said no vega conflict player ever
The simplest solution is to remove the armor bonus from the Xeno disintegrator cannon and reduce the mass proportionally. There is limited benefit to the armor bonus if it doesn't have the mass reduction. We could then equip extra armor in armor slots that would benefit from the discount. Since the disintegrator cannon is ONLY usable on the Punisher, it is nearly the exclusive weapon used on the Punisher and definitely the major one that has an armor benefit. If Kixeye is sincere about fixing this "bug" that is the solution that should be applied. Making the weapon keep the less effective armor is actually hurting the effectiveness of the weapon, so if this is Kixeye's intent, then they are accomplishing their goal. So what is it Chris?
How will this work for mobile users? Do we need an update we need to wait to see the changes?
This is essential as any wait would cut into the refit discount time. In worst case we could not use the discount as we would have to keep factory open for those forced "free" repairs
Are they required to strictly follow some fundamental "laws of game mechanics"?
Armor is armor... Right?, why can't this just be left alone??
U cannot make exceptions to armored thrusters just cuz.....
The "it's not a bug, it's a feature!" joke in game development holds water in some cases, but in most situations building off a broken system only comes back to haunt you later. If there's a bug, usually good to do your best to fix it.
In the Xeno season, there was a fairly legitimate argument to be made that the Punisher was equally good at accomplishing everything the specialized ships set out to do better. Cruisers are meant to be good general ships, but they're not meant to be so good that they're on the same level at the specific thing specialized attack ships are meant to be great at.
We had chalked it up to an unfortunate misstep when we first made the Punisher but it turns out a big part of the situation had to do with how powerful you could make the Punisher due to this bug. I could list lots of reasons as to why it took so long for that bug to make it onto our radar - but they'd all sound like excuses. Suffice to say - it just did.
So while the Xeno season was going, players had a bit of an edge. Build other ships if you want but primarily just focus on the one. That's not what we intended. So the bug needs to get fixed, first and foremost to not build off a broken system, secondly to draw the lines more clearly between the generalist and the specialized attack ships back to how they were always intended to be.
I know it's a painful change. The game team knows it too. Hopefully the free refits and the extended refit discount period minimizes the disruption as much as possible.
There is no reason to change punishers now that the xeno season is over. If Kix doesnt like what they did with mass reduction on punishers simply dont do same mass reduction on tier 6.5 cruiser. This is so aggravating. Xeno will be outclassed very soon so why nerf xeno cruisers now? Just be honest. You are nerfing punishers now so that the players are forced to coin build tier 6.5 stuff to compete at all. Greed, greed, greed.
FIXED: Punisher Cruisers were incorrectly applying their -% Armor
Mass bonus to weapons and specials that are not considered Armor, even
though they provide health. This Armor Mass bonus should only apply to
items in an Armor Slot and the Armored Hold special, nothing else. This
has been fixed, and will likely result in a weight increase for most
upgraded Punisher Cruisers. If your ship becomes overweight, it will
automatically trigger a free refit. We have also increased the upcoming
refit discount period to a 50% discount instead of the usual 20%, and
this discount will run for 48 hours starting July 4th at 3PM PDT.
I'm calling bullshit on this one. When the Punisher cruiser was released we were told this was a support ship that "lives from armor". Items such as XF DCs, Armored Hold and Armored Thrusters ARE armor, its just that they're not in the armor slot.
Its very convenient that the VC devs just happened to "discover" this "bug" 6mo after the ship was released and right before a new faction is released. It's especially hypocritical considering that:
The armor mass reduction bonus for regular disintegrator cannons WAS taken away but NOT the xeno DC weapon
Somehow the Armored Hold special is an exception?? What about Xeno Armored Hold? What about Xeno ARMORED Thrusters?
Newsflash Kixeye: armor IS health. Health IS armor. There is nothing more rage inducing to me than a game dev that refuses to be consistent in abiding by its own arbitrarily created rules in a transparent attempt to extract more money out of its playerbase.
I've spend 6 mo hunting down cores and patterns and parts and tech to fit a Punisher cruiser that was "geared correctly" for the alien threat, and now here comes Kixeye stomping on my laboriously constructed sandcastle: "Oh were you working on that? My bad! Looks like you'll have to start over!"
Dude, VERY well written and SPOT on. completely hit it on the head and skewered kixeye at the same time.
The simplest solution is to remove the armor bonus from the Xeno disintegrator cannon and reduce the mass proportionally. There is limited benefit to the armor bonus if it doesn't have the mass reduction. We could then equip extra armor in armor slots that would benefit from the discount. Since the disintegrator cannon is ONLY usable on the Punisher, it is nearly the exclusive weapon used on the Punisher and definitely the major one that has an armor benefit. If Kixeye is sincere about fixing this "bug" that is the solution that should be applied. Making the weapon keep the less effective armor is actually hurting the effectiveness of the weapon, so if this is Kixeye's intent, then they are accomplishing their goal. So what is it Chris?
The mass values are: (with the current bug)
XDC I
MK 1: 1386
MK 2: 1247.4 (90%)
MK 3: 1108.8 (80%)
MK 4: 970.19 (70%)
MK 5: 900.9 (655)
XDC II
MK 1: 1782
MK 2: 1603.8 (90%)
MK 3: 1425.6 (80%)
MK 4: 1247.4 (70%)
MK 5: 1158.3 (65%)
this makes the xdc 2 have a mass to dps ratio of 4.2 at mk 5 ( the best of any xeno weapon on the punisher).
Fixing this will return it to 7.2 on all mk's which brings it back inline with other xeno weapons. They could change the mass to bring it on 6.3 which is the dps to mass ratio of cluster and rupture beam and keep some of the mass benefit but they are not doing so. It will just mean there are other choices now on weapons for punishers. The build times of the xdc is still making it the most viable choice
The problem with this game is the power curves. Just look at the graphs I made. Said no vega conflict player ever
Are aware that with that "bug" fix you are penalizing non coiners? Even if there is a free refit for overweight ships will only fix the issue for players that have MK6 punishers, for those that are marking up them, it will imply that they will have to review the complete built of the punishers, and will fall even further behind to other players...
Not well thought and unnecessary bug fix, players should have been warned in advance that there was a bug and let them plan ahead
@CM Chris
Why is the game team making this change anyway?
Are they required to strictly follow some fundamental "laws of game mechanics"?
Armor is armor... Right?, why can't this just be left alone??
U cannot make exceptions to armored thrusters just cuz.....
If kix wants to massively buff mass of weapons and specials then kix needs to give use free craft tokens so the players can immediately craft their punishers to mk5 so we dont all get hosed. Anything less than this is just bait and switch.
Armored Hold is the same thing as an Armored Weapon....
Same way:
Armored Hold is the same thing as an Armored Thrusters....
I simply don't understand the logic behind this and the need/desire to change this now....
The "it's not a bug, it's a feature!" joke in game development holds water in some cases, but in most situations building off a broken system only comes back to haunt you later. If there's a bug, usually good to do your best to fix it.
In the Xeno season, there was a fairly legitimate argument to be made that the Punisher was equally good at accomplishing everything the specialized ships set out to do better. Cruisers are meant to be good general ships, but they're not meant to be so good that they're on the same level at the specific thing specialized attack ships are meant to be great at.
We had chalked it up to an unfortunate misstep when we first made the Punisher but it turns out a big part of the situation had to do with how powerful you could make the Punisher due to this bug. I could list lots of reasons as to why it took so long for that bug to make it onto our radar - but they'd all sound like excuses. Suffice to say - it just did.
So while the Xeno season was going, players had a bit of an edge. Build other ships if you want but primarily just focus on the one. That's not what we intended. So the bug needs to get fixed, first and foremost to not build off a broken system, secondly to draw the lines more clearly between the generalist and the specialized attack ships back to how they were always intended to be.
I know it's a painful change. The game team knows it too. Hopefully the free refits and the extended refit discount period minimizes the disruption as much as possible.
Many years ago Microsoft made a bug or two (just kidding, make lots of bug, but I want to talk about 2 of them). One was in Windows XP (or maybe event 95) in RichtextBox in the way it behaves in some circumstances and another in Excel in the way it computes leap year. They was obvious bugs but before Microsoft fixed those bugs people get used to them and started to workaround them. Since them fixing the bug would make lots of other bugs because of workarounds, so Microsoft left those bugs until now and they become features.
Punishers are quite a long time with them, they are very universal and we really like them as they are. Currently A.X.I.S. is coming and I don't see the reason for making punisheres less powerful. They are just right even if this wasn't intended. Let this be a really feature.
P.S. 50% refit discount is really great anyway. I'll be able to equip my suppressor with xeno weapons finally.
I can understand that the team needs to fix the punishers versatility. Totally understandable.
I just wish that we got an earlier notification cuz we the players plan a lot.
For example:
I have a build that I wanted to start tonight (blank hull) and have it finish on the 5th, so that I could utilize the refit discount period for some xeno lvl 2 refits. Coining the specials during the discount period and then starting one right before it ends.
1) Now I won't be able to start the blank hull, cuz I will need to refit my puns so that they fit in my FB12.
2) I won't be able to utilize the discount for the xeno refit that I had planned. Unless I coin the blank hull...
3) I won't be able to participate in the ancient reaper preview unless I refit everything before that.
@CM Chris
Can't the team just make this change happen in the next down time??
I think this would be a satisfactory situation for both the game team and the players.
What do you think about that?
I don't think reducing armor (by increasing mass) is gonna make the pun any less versatile/effective and have a significant impact in a short period in July?
Please see if this change can happen in the next down time.
@cm chris
This is a game alteration AND NOT A "BUG" and you know it. Make the punisher weaker and then release the new cruiser, which will be bigger and better. But only the mega coiners will benefit. You want us to trust you but time and time again you screw us over.
If this was a bug that the dev team knew about, why didn't kixeye say something a month ago. Don't answer that, because you was busy collecting our money from the punisher builds we was doing.
Trust broken, again. This company is so GREEDY and full of ****.
It's already baked in to the release - we're ripping the bandaid off now. Better to get it out of the way and move forward rather than let this hang over the game for a month.
Nah that's just a flexible piece of background art we can use across multiple low-level events.
Not that I'm aware of - but that is a functionality change the design team is pushing for. Priority targets get a little weird when you add Targeting Computer into the mix and the end intention is to have Suppressor able to target 1 ship and 1 squadron or maybe even only target squadrons even if another ship is in range.
That is such utter bs chris. There is no reason but greed for kix to nerf punishers. If there was a mistake it was kix's. Why are we punished for your mistake? Clearly the way punishers are now is not game breaking as we have gone a full season with them like this. We have spent months building punishers. Many have spent hundreds of dollars building them. Then you do bait and switch nerf right before next tier is released. Shame on you chris and shame on kix. Dont you pretend that this punisher nerf was necessary and that you are doing us a favor by shafting all of the players. Why should anyone give kix one more penny? What incentive do we have when you time and time again do bait and switch on your customers? You dont even apologize for nerfing our ships with little warning, little recompense and even less reason.
what about a way to tag fleets in the alien sector?
I think its a Lie. Approximately 1 Year i wait on the Adjustment of NPC-Fleets, since Coineye changed the Turnrate on Destroyers.
One more question and I'm sorry for annoying you but does that mean after the bug is fixed with the punishers does that mean that the repair times will go down?
I dunno why it took you guys so long I added this in ship calc here on the 5th of march and queried it several times on the forums.
Same thing with armoured thrusters on cov cruisers here. Still never found out why this was never fixed. Same mass bonus. different ship mass. Might only be a few mass off but its still wrong
How will this work for mobile users? Do we need an update we need to wait to see the changes?
This is essential as any wait would cut into the refit discount time. In worst case we could not use the discount as we would have to keep factory open for those forced "free" repairs
There is no reason to change punishers now that the xeno season is over. If Kix doesnt like what they did with mass reduction on punishers simply dont do same mass reduction on tier 6.5 cruiser. This is so aggravating. Xeno will be outclassed very soon so why nerf xeno cruisers now? Just be honest. You are nerfing punishers now so that the players are forced to coin build tier 6.5 stuff to compete at all. Greed, greed, greed.
Dude, VERY well written and SPOT on. completely hit it on the head and skewered kixeye at the same time.
@CM Chris
Can you please answer this concern of mine?
The mass values are: (with the current bug)
this makes the xdc 2 have a mass to dps ratio of 4.2 at mk 5 ( the best of any xeno weapon on the punisher).
Fixing this will return it to 7.2 on all mk's which brings it back inline with other xeno weapons. They could change the mass to bring it on 6.3 which is the dps to mass ratio of cluster and rupture beam and keep some of the mass benefit but they are not doing so. It will just mean there are other choices now on weapons for punishers. The build times of the xdc is still making it the most viable choice
@Mr topgear
Do u know how much mass will be added at each mk lvl?
Does that mean that 624 x 4 = 2496. (1782-1158) Will increase at mk6?
1428 at mk3? Etc