It comes down to Xeno usability in PvP situations. While Xeno's usability was designed for NPC targets, PvP is still considered as part of the whole. We want to make sure there's uses for it in that context.
When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+). If we had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on bases over the gating cap (level 60). So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets.
From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).
So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.
TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.
After reading your CM announcement in the forum and this paragraph, I ask you a question with idea, why not organize a players council?, A small group that is very active and participates in the game in great alliances and coalitions, That they have information from the majority of the community, and regularly organize meetings with them to make the change of information, and to be able to improve these times in a better way now that a change comes with you from CM, is a humble opinion, I have Lost many Friends In the last months in Vega, and I have less and less desire to continue
hey better yet where is our base tech to counter said xeno fleet/tech i can take half the health from a 75 xeno punisher fleet before i go boom on my 50base but with new tech i can and would killd said xeno fleet WHERES OUR NEW BASE TECH
After reading your CM announcement in the forum and this paragraph, I ask you a question with idea, why not organize a players council?, A small group that is very active and participates in the game in great alliances and coalitions, That they have information from the majority of the community, and regularly organize meetings with them to make the change of information, and to be able to improve these times in a better way now that a change comes with you from CM, is a humble opinion, I have Lost many Friends In the last months in Vega, and I have less and less desire to continue
You must be new here. That's already been tried. Didn't work past meeting 1.
After reading your CM announcement in the forum and this paragraph, I ask you a question with idea, why not organize a players council?, A small group that is very active and participates in the game in great alliances and coalitions, That they have information from the majority of the community, and regularly organize meetings with them to make the change of information, and to be able to improve these times in a better way now that a change comes with you from CM, is a humble opinion, I have Lost many Friends In the last months in Vega, and I have less and less desire to continue
You must be new here. That's already been tried. Didn't work past meeting 1.
Almost 2 years ago in Vega, it must have existed before, the previous year there was a meeting by these dates and it was not so bad
LXC tried to have one. Apparently it turned in a big SNAFU and after the first meeting they never got back together. Maybe with new CM it can happen again but it is doubtful.
It comes down to Xeno usability in PvP situations. While Xeno's usability was designed for NPC targets, PvP is still considered as part of the whole. We want to make sure there's uses for it in that context.
When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+). If we had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on bases over the gating cap (level 60). So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets.
From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).
So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.
TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.
CM_chris
Firstly, thankyou for the thoughtful and helpful reply. You have no idea how nice it is to know that these concerns are being heard, rather than just dissppearing into the void.
I take your point about having stuff to use the xeno tech on. Certainly with bases. Not sure that applies so much in FVF, as there are plenty of high level fleets tooling around, and a gate of 60 for FVF certainly would not be too restrictive.
Its really good to hear that there is an appreciation that the playing field is a bit bumpy at the moment and that it will be leveled. I had a fight yesterday between a bunch of furies and a carrier against 5 elite punishers with the same carrier. It was not what you might call a balanced encounter . A level 55 fleet has little chance to hurt a level 80 fleet.
Can I very respectfully suggest that even if the basing situation is left until the bases get some love (which they very sorely need), the FVF playing field could be somewhat leveled really very easily by restoring the level 60 cap? The only targets that would deprive the Xeno fleets of are tier 4ish fleets. Leaves almost any DC or xeno fleets, which is most of them, as legitimate targets.
Thanks again for your kind attention to this concern.
I agree with this 100% all my DC fleets are 60+ and even they are no match for any 70+ (unless the pilot is a complete idiot) Xeno fleet. 55-60 are basically cannon fodder. The argument about the high end players not having anything to smash with their new fleets is bull, the vast majority of the community have DC already and have been flying them around for some time. the community has been asking for the new gating changes long before xeno was released, and we were asking for those changes to give mid level players a break from the OP DC fleets. Anyone who has played this game for some time knows that if you are fighting someone who knows how to build fleets and can fly, +-5 levels is a big deal in this game, so I don't see how you can justify the argument that an up to 36 lvl spread in fleet size is justifiable in any way!
The problem with this game is the power curves. Just look at the graphs I made. Said no vega conflict player ever
It comes down to Xeno usability in PvP situations. While Xeno's usability was designed for NPC targets, PvP is still considered as part of the whole. We want to make sure there's uses for it in that context.
When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+). If we had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on bases over the gating cap (level 60). So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets.
From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).
So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.
TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.
So the real problem is that when you guys changed the PVE meta to gearing making flying essentially useless, you also made it the new meta in FVF above lvl 55 and even below that in many cases with infernal wave Damocles fleets being flown at that level and such. This change with the limited tech and no direct damage bonuses from class to class amongst xeno ships has made it virtually useless flying at that level for many players and for those that do its still very difficult to say that the skill/tech ratio is even anywhere near fair. you've taken single ships within a fleet and given them to same health and damage comparable to many fleets being flown around just 6 months ago. And its been noticed. I don't wanna be a nay sayer anymore but coming from a small but top 20 alliance, we have had many of our heaviest coiners literally quit the game. That's revenue. The whole reason many top players played the game as long as we have is because there is a finesse to flying in this game that is unrivaled by many games where skill played a very large part in winning the fight and tech not so much. A skilled pilot used to be able to take out a wide array of ships and fits and regardless of the tech, with good piloting they could take the day. Now with the shift in the meta to gearing(as previously mentioned).
As far as jacking up the xeno XP levels, that really doesn't matter for anything to be completely honest. It doesn't matter whether the fleet level is 56 or 100, anything above level 55 can attack. What I originally proposed and was kind of lost to the winds was having 2 gates. One at level 55, and one at lvl 70. Anything between 55 and 70 was fair game for one another, anything 70 and above was fair game to each other. With obviously the 5+- at each gate meaning a 70 could still attack a 65 but would also be susceptible to attack from those higher fleets. As it stands, the hardest counter to the punishers is currently still either another(better geared) punisher fleet, which nobody wins from good skilled piloting, even if you are an expert at juggling ships, or a battleship fleet.
Which brings me to my next point: the annihilator. Can you please explain to me what the point of having such a massive sub capital non flag ship is. As far as we can tell, the other xeno ships have normal signature radii to their hulls but we have all seen the glitches in which the annihilator hit box is white and nearly 4 times the size of any other battleship. That when coupled with the lack of speed inherent to battleships and the inability to adequately cover its fleet mates makes the ship a completely different breed of battleship. Unless you are starting in a loyal battalion formation, its so large that the formations bump it out of position off the gun, the fleet takes up twice as much space in the battlefield and its makes it rather ineffective other then the fact that it has the hitpoints and tech to brawl to the death with other xeno class ships. I have seen numerous fights where the ships size was a hinderance to flying it. Its definitely one ship I wanted and wanted to fly but the ship is so bulky that its not fun to fly. Its literally like flying a giant hunk of bait in a freighter with a lotta damage and ready to be swarmed by cutters. Yes it does massive damage and can win fights but why is it not the same size as other ships of its class.
My summation and I would like to see your counter to it, is that by taking the meta in PVE away from SKILL and towards what kind of tech you have fitted, also changed the meta of FVF to how good your gear was and not how well you can actually fly(play the game) and your level of skill becomes completely replaced by the size of your wallet. The jokes on you, I know multiple guys who were dropping a grand a month on this game easily who just quit playing and gave their accounts away.
I would also like to add: Thank you for actually responding with a very well thought out response and welcome back to the community.
@CM Chris said:
It comes down to Xeno usability in PvP situations. While Xeno's usability was designed for NPC targets, PvP is still considered as part of the whole. We want to make sure there's uses for it in that context.
Great stuff so far, yes of course new tech will also be used in pvp and pvb
When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+).
If you had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on fleets over the gating cap (level 60).
And it should be that way if you ask me
MKE xeno punishers can take down any mk5 Demon Corp fleet (which is the 2nd best faction in the game right now) without breaking a sweat
You see, let's bring a specific example
Mk5 damocales with infernal wave (a very popular fitting nowadays)
Have it fight any cruiser fleet (up to t5 cruisers) and that that cruiser fleet will die and barely take down one damocales before dying
Mke punishers come and can kill the entire mk5 Damocales fleet BEFORE losing one punisher
Now is that balanced? No.. Absolutely not
With the power spike xeno has against all other factions, it shouldn't be able to hit other factions which is why I think the pvp gating should be high, 70 if you ask me personally (because Demon Corp and iron star can easily achieve 60-65)
>
So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets.
Well
Bases are always meant to be the big boss that is tough to beat, they should never be easy to take down
And with xeno, they can 3 star several bases in a row without recalling
Is that balanced? again the answer is no
A while after the base gating of +/-5 on bases people returned to Sniping, which is an art in taking down bases compared to blind and careless rush
And one could get a lvl 53 sniper fleet that when used right can take down almost any base Lvl 48-52 (which forces the player to learn the skill, which makes the game more fun)
But even if you wanna insist on rushing
I saw many players use 2 fleets of punishers back to back (each fleet had 3-4 puns)
They would bring down the bridge to a low hp with the first hit
And then with the 2nd hit kill the bridge and a few other modules and get the 2 star eventually
And that wasn't bad at all
At least then one had to worry about where you position ships to get a better result and all
Which again pushes for skillful play, not undeserved victories
From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck
Yes it sucks that we never have time for pvp anymore
But who's fault is that
It's not the community that makes up those events
It's you guys
You really should tune down the events.. The whole community begs you
>
(and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).
and again its not the community's fault
You released the punisher, waited until every coiner coined themselves a fleet of those
And two days later you suddenly changed the gating rules
Had you been more transparent and announced that you're going to change the rules ahead of time (preferably before the new season even began)
You would've received way less negative feedback about the changes
So again, that is not our fault, it's yours
So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.
What reward one gets when their Lvl 55 non xeno (probably even non t5) gets flattened by xeno ships and not being able to even do 1% of dmg
Zero.. Zero reward for the Lvl 55 fleet
Which is again why xeno should only be able to fight xeno
TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.
The original gate change did result in more pvp
When going out with a lvl 53 fleet knowing only a 48-58 can hit you
It means that it'll be a fleet with a tech close to yours
Which is good, which is fair for BOTH sides
But now, it's the exact opposite of fair for the Lvl 55 fleet to be attacked by a lvl 90 that they can't do a single thing about
Xeno can handle xeno
But nothing else (t5 or lower) can handle xeno
(highlighted reviews from famous people) ''i never met anyone like him Before'' -Elon Musk, ''i wish i couldve explored the void as much as he has'' -Stephen Hawking, ''this dude is fu*king amazing'' -Eminem
What I originally proposed and was kind of lost to the winds was having 2 gates. One at level 55, and one at lvl 70. Anything between 55 and 70 was fair game for one another, anything 70 and above was fair game to each other. With obviously the 5+- at each gate meaning a 70 could still attack a 65 but would also be susceptible to attack from those higher fleets.
I had actually had the same idea for the gating and talked about it to my alliance mates. The two tiers would further balance the game keeping ships among themselves more appropriately. Who knows now much extra programming it would take to do two tiers but that would make most sense considering the enormous power gap that xeno brings to the game.
What I originally proposed and was kind of lost to the winds was having 2 gates. One at level 55, and one at lvl 70. Anything between 55 and 70 was fair game for one another, anything 70 and above was fair game to each other. With obviously the 5+- at each gate meaning a 70 could still attack a 65 but would also be susceptible to attack from those higher fleets.
I had actually had the same idea for the gating and talked about it to my alliance mates. The two tiers would further balance the game keeping ships among themselves more appropriately. Who knows now much extra programming it would take to do two tiers but that would make most sense considering the enormous power gap that xeno brings to the game.
The crazy thing is, having multiple people with that same thought which is pretty abstract but simply implemented should maybe be a sign. Lol. But what do I know. I'm just the customer.
What I originally proposed and was kind of lost to the winds was having 2 gates. One at level 55, and one at lvl 70. Anything between 55 and 70 was fair game for one another, anything 70 and above was fair game to each other. With obviously the 5+- at each gate meaning a 70 could still attack a 65 but would also be susceptible to attack from those higher fleets.
I had actually had the same idea for the gating and talked about it to my alliance mates. The two tiers would further balance the game keeping ships among themselves more appropriately. Who knows now much extra programming it would take to do two tiers but that would make most sense considering the enormous power gap that xeno brings to the game.
The crazy thing is, having multiple people with that same thought which is pretty abstract but simply implemented should maybe be a sign. Lol. But what do I know. I'm just the customer.
Haha, well if my understanding of the purpose of gating is correct then its not that surprising other reasonable people would have the same idea. Balance should maintain both fairness and challenge. Even when ISC came out it was quite a stretch to see the gating rules as fair especially when people were python spamming until they released the MK system, after they made cutters vulnerable, which returned some measure of balance back allowing for the idea of counters. Old OP fleets now had something that could possibly take them down. The release of DC and infernal weapons started to throw off the balance and really tip the scales towards coiners. They have great damage but the fitting times are unbearably long. Only coiners can realistically fit them and use them. Now Xeno makes everything seem like paper, even other xeno. Ships need to be separated.
It comes down to Xeno usability in PvP situations. While Xeno's usability was designed for NPC targets, PvP is still considered as part of the whole. We want to make sure there's uses for it in that context.
When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+). If we had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on bases over the gating cap (level 60). So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets.
From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).
So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.
TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.
My counter to this: - When the gating was reset to 55 (from 60) for fleets, it was a gripe, but not so much since the players still could use older tech and put out fleets that are less than lvl 55 (lvl 54 fleets escorted by a lvl 59 was fairly common). It gave players a choice. Hence if they have a fleet that is 55+ they knew what they were in for. - For bases, the player does not have a choice. If your base is 45+ (which most bases are) then you don't choose whether you can or cannot participate. This is where the biggest user concerns were. When you limit a player's ability, they feel fairly helpless and hence are frustrated.
If you had left the base gating at 50, then the really advanced end stage players will have bases that are going to be one click destroyed , but it will also be that they have better fleets to try and protect their base. (possibly Xeno ships an weapons to counter the fleets).
In all env, the most enjoyable pvp or pvb are those where people feel they have been involved in a fair fight.
LXC tried to have one. Apparently it turned in a big SNAFU and after the first meeting they never got back together. Maybe with new CM it can happen again but it is doubtful.
If so they have to make sure its not full of people with huge egos who loves to hear their own voice. They do not represent the majority of players. They may have represented a good portion of the coin though.
It comes down to Xeno usability in PvP situations. While Xeno's usability was designed for NPC targets, PvP is still considered as part of the whole. We want to make sure there's uses for it in that context.
When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+). If we had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on bases over the gating cap (level 60). So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets.
From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).
So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.
TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.
My counter to this: - When the gating was reset to 55 (from 60) for fleets, it was a gripe, but not so much since the players still could use older tech and put out fleets that are less than lvl 55 (lvl 54 fleets escorted by a lvl 59 was fairly common). It gave players a choice. Hence if they have a fleet that is 55+ they knew what they were in for. - For bases, the player does not have a choice. If your base is 45+ (which most bases are) then you don't choose whether you can or cannot participate. This is where the biggest user concerns were. When you limit a player's ability, they feel fairly helpless and hence are frustrated.
If you had left the base gating at 50, then the really advanced end stage players will have bases that are going to be one click destroyed , but it will also be that they have better fleets to try and protect their base. (possibly Xeno ships an weapons to counter the fleets).
In all env, the most enjoyable pvp or pvb are those where people feel they have been involved in a fair fight.
Something to think about.
why would you assume that a 50 base is a mega coiner because that what your implying with this. not all 50s are elite players with elite tech and massive depth to there pockets, i am a 50 nearly 51 i dont coin i have some xeno ships and there are just that. so no gating shouldnt be 50 so others can hide at 49. the gating should be 45 for fleets nad bases, BUT the level should be +/- 10 from 44 - 74 then at 75 for fleets and above should be free for all. you sir sound like one of those scared to be based i know there probably is a phobia of the repair button but try to make it less noticible
All they need to restore the previously fixed gating rule is the xeno tech for bases. Talonite armor, Distintegrators/Cluster Missiles/Rupture turrets would all raise base levels quickly above 50 for high end players as they refit. Not alien, since xeno have resistance, but 'normal' Xeno Division versions with their amplified damage.
The only people who don't seem to realize the game is screwed is kix. So far from Chris it's the same old crap. Gating is fine, new battleship is fine blah blah blah.
@Master Uxi said:
All they need to restore the previously fixed gating rule is the xeno tech for bases. Talonite armor, Distintegrators/Cluster Missiles/Rupture turrets would all raise base levels quickly above 50 for high end players as they refit. Not alien, since xeno have resistance, but 'normal' Xeno Division versions with their amplified damage.
That could take years (erm days in non-kix timing) to develop and test.
It comes down to Xeno usability in PvP situations. While Xeno's usability was designed for NPC targets, PvP is still considered as part of the whole. We want to make sure there's uses for it in that context.
When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+). If we had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on bases over the gating cap (level 60). So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets.
From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).
So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.
TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.
While the base gating may make sense due to current content, it doesn't leave a very good impression of your company's ability to plan ahead. With the Xeno stuff, testing should have made it very clear that if those ships were not restricted from PvB, then you were going to have a problem with bases.
The gating is more of a problem with FvF though. I was farming for res, had just finished a Vega fleet when I was attacked by a fleet 30 lvls higher than me. I had no chance. I don't think I even depleted the shields of the attacking fleet. So not only did I get utterly stomped and a 14-15 hour repair, but I had 90+% of my resources taken by the attacking fleet. At that point, I just logged off, because several 80+ fleets were attacking anyone they could, all the while being complete jerks... (would use a much more colorful term, but censorship) in sector chat. I am certain I am not the only one leaving the game when crap like that happens. The current gating changes encourage bullying and I'm not sure that's what your intent is with the game. If it is, just let us know.
why would you assume that a 50 base is a mega coiner because that what your implying with this. not all 50s are elite players with elite tech and massive depth to there pockets, i am a 50 nearly 51 i dont coin i have some xeno ships and there are just that. so no gating shouldnt be 50 so others can hide at 49. the gating should be 45 for fleets nad bases, BUT the level should be +/- 10 from 44 - 74 then at 75 for fleets and above should be free for all. you sir sound like one of those scared to be based i know there probably is a phobia of the repair button but try to make it less noticible
I never said mega coiners. But it would be a fair assumption wouldn't that a fair majority of bases that are 50+ are going to have fb13 and xeno fleets ? You don't coin is an outlier. We can take a fairly educated guess that most with lvl 50+ bases , do. Hence my query stands. As for your personal comments, since you dont coin, and i suck, bring your fleets and let's see how it goes Oh wait, but then you are not one of that whachamacallit? ... drool, shmool...oh wait...troll ... are ya
@CM Chris said:
It comes down to Xeno usability in PvP situations. While Xeno's usability was designed for NPC targets, PvP is still considered as part of the whole. We want to make sure there's uses for it in that context.
When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+). If we had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on bases over the gating cap (level 60). So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets.
From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).
So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.
TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.
Now that our bases are constantly threatened by xeno invasions when can we expect our bases to be upgraded AGAIN???? Hopefully not as long as last time. Hopefully there is more than two weapons we can rely on (storm /Gemini driver) and weapon type (projectile). Hopefully it's fixed before tier7 and hopefully we won't have to worry about bases for years to come #Hopfully PS. Hopefully cm Chris responds to more than one comment
There is far too much of a jump in power between T5 and T6- that should be evident from how broken the gating is.
The power curve needs to be *at most* linear, or it should by asymptotic in the Y axis (as you go up higher in tiers, the jump in power between tiers is lower the higher you go.
T6 does the opposite- it is an exponential jump in power in a system where gating was designed to work within a linear or asymptotic power curve. It should not be a surprise that the proliferation of Xeno equipment has broken the gating rules.
So instead of adjusting gating to keep the lower tiers from being brushed aside, Kixeye did the opposite and lowered gating because they thought there wasn't enough Xeno PvB? That's insane. You released ships with an exponential jump in power, and you expect bases that have a hard limit on progression to be able to compete with them? No.
Basically, what it boils down to is that the coiners who put a lot of "effort" hitting the gold colored button didn't have enough easy targets. The base gating should never have been lowered to 45, rather the bases should've been given a way to come up to parity with the new fleets you've unleashed on them. Don't worry about there not being enough l50 bases... enough people will put in the "effort" or coining it that they will start popping up- in the meantime, there is a continuous stream of High end PvE events for people to throw their L90 Xeno fleets against.
There is actually a second problem- dumbed down punisher fleets- there are still folks out there who are using small numbers of Xeno ships without shields (using armor and resistances for protection) with massive firepower) that are able to stay below l55 - this is the same issue we had with the pre-rebalance VSEC battleship kiting fleets that came in at L34-36 and could murder low level farming fleets almost with impunity (but actually had to be flown well to do it- unlike today where the right dumbed down punisher build can rip apart most L50-L55 fleets on auto (except maybe marked Hellfires with VF vectors and net torps flown very well)- this basically reduces the effective diversity in the 50-55 meta to mkd hellfires/vf vector net builds since everything else is meat on the table- even the more interesting no-carrier builds out there are essentially useless when Xeno troll fleets are around.
Basically, pivoting the power curve the way Kixeye did with T6, opened Pandora's box.
For those of you who don't get the math terminology, here's a crude drawing to explain it.
It is not just the gating that is broken it is also the content that needs fixing. Not long ago Corenthian cruisers and reverb was a decent ship and weapon to have. I have a mk 5 fleet of them which now I never use.
Here's a mk1 example of just how unblanaced the game now is with the XP system and current gating rules.
These ships are apparently within 3 levels of each other.
Same weapon range Same Defence rating 9084 vs 9090 Same speed
Punisher has 1hr 22m 25s lower repair time Punisher has 322 more dps Punisher has lower build time
So my question to you "@CM Chris" is why would any players bother making any content other than Xeno.
Literally all the ships I have built before this season is essentially useless to me and 90% of them I have not launched in months
They have no alien resistance so are no good for events, the repair times are longer and the dps is lower. These are the ships new players are trying to acquire and upgrade yet you are allowing them to be killed by Xeno ships with awful XP and gating ranges.
You maybe catering for the end gamers acquiring the new tech by giving them targets to kill but you are essentially killing up and coming players off and also destroying the game balance for mid gamers and making all pre Xeno tech obsolete and useless apart from a select few infernal demon corp ships and flagships
Are there any plans to sort this mess out or do we simply have to put up with it and watch the game deteriorate further as more and more tech is added to the game
The problem with this game is the power curves. Just look at the graphs I made. Said no vega conflict player ever
Looking at the last two posts (Vespo and Top Gear). The only way the gating would be fair would be to narrow the window. That would mean that a level 80 fleet can only engage other level 80 fleets. Looking at the power curve, it's the only solution I can see. The higher your fleet level is, the narrower the +/- levels of fleets you can engage in becomes.
I think at this stage, Kixeye might need to seriously consider creating "leagues" to replace the gating system.
Other online games do it and it's simple and it's actually fun. Each leage is tiered (Bronze, Silver and Gold leagues for example). Basically if you challenge someone "higher ranked" than you, you can increase your ranking in the league but you can only attack someone in the same league as you. Attacking someone lower than you is still possible, but won't increase your standing. Once you score X amount of victories, you increase leagues (Go from Bronze to silver). At the end of the week (or month), each member of the league is given a "league prize". Obviously, the higher league you are in, the better the prizes.
@Mr TopGear said:
It is not just the gating that is broken it is also the content that needs fixing. Not long ago Corenthian cruisers and reverb was a decent ship and weapon to have. I have a mk 5 fleet of them which now I never use.
Here's a mk1 example of just how unblanaced the game now is with the XP system and current gating rules.
These ships are apparently within 3 levels of each other.
Same weapon range
Same Defence rating 9084 vs 9090
Same speed
Punisher has 1hr 22m 25s lower repair time
Punisher has 322 more dps
Punisher has lower build time
So my question to you "@CM Chris" is why would any players bother making any content other than Xeno.
Literally all the ships I have built before this season is essentially useless to me and 90% of them I have not launched in months
They have no alien resistance so are no good for events, the repair times are longer and the dps is lower. These are the ships new players are trying to acquire and upgrade yet you are allowing them to be killed by Xeno ships with awful XP and gating ranges.
You maybe catering for the end gamers acquiring the new tech by giving them targets to kill but you are essentially killing up and coming players off and also destroying the game balance for mid gamers and making all pre Xeno tech obsolete and useless apart from a select few infernal demon corp ships and flagships
Are there any plans to sort this mess out or do we simply have to put up with it and watch the game deteriorate further as more and more tech is added to the game
Very clearly presented and discussion is spot-on. Please comment @cm chris
Are there any plans to sort this mess out or do we simply have to put up with it and watch the game deteriorate further as more and more tech is added to the game
Regarding the XP values, as we've stated already in the April WIP we are re-tuning those to be a more accurate reflection of fleet power.
Regarding older tech you have no longer being useful...this is a game of progression. If you have reached the Tier 6 stage of the game, then you should largely only be building Tier 6 tech. You've passed the point in which Tier 4 tech would still be relevant to the level at which you're competing. Do you know for whom Tier 4 tech is useful? People who were just at Tier 3.
If it helps, think of a fantasy RPG - at the beginning of the game I have level 1 armor, and I work hard and get level 2 armor, then level 3. A lot farther down the road, I get level 10 armor. I'm not mad that my level 3 armor isn't as useful to me anymore, even though I worked hard and spent a lot of time to get it. I understand that the challenge and reward of obtaining level 3 armor allowed me to tackle the challenge of getting level 4 armor. Then, having level 4 armor helped me to get to level 5 armor.
Similar to that example, this is not a game in which you get to the end-game and every piece of tech or hull you ever owned is useful to you for end-game content. If that is your expectation, you're going to be frustrated when it continues to not be reality.
If, however, your concern is truly only that it's a poor experience for early and mid-level players, then the XP re-tunings should help take care of that in some part. And something more constructive to advocate for would be making all content up through T5 more accessible, so that early players can make their progression up to end-game faster. That is something that - I'm more than happy to inform you - is certainly on our list of things to do.
Are there any plans to sort this mess out or do we simply have to put up with it and watch the game deteriorate further as more and more tech is added to the game
Regarding the XP values, as we've stated already in the April WIP we are re-tuning those to be a more accurate reflection of fleet power.
Regarding older tech you have no longer being useful...this is a game of progression. If you have reached the Tier 6 stage of the game, then you should largely only be building Tier 6 tech. You've passed the point in which Tier 4 tech would still be relevant to the level at which you're competing. Do you know for whom Tier 4 tech is useful? People who were just at Tier 3.
If it helps, think of a fantasy RPG - at the beginning of the game I have level 1 armor, and I work hard and get level 2 armor, then level 3. A lot farther down the road, I get level 10 armor. I'm not mad that my level 3 armor isn't as useful to me anymore, even though I worked hard and spent a lot of time to get it. I understand that the challenge and reward of obtaining level 3 armor allowed me to tackle the challenge of getting level 4 armor. Then, having level 4 armor helped me to get to level 5 armor.
Similar to that example, this is not a game in which you get to the end-game and every piece of tech or hull you ever owned is useful to you for end-game content. If that is your expectation, you're going to be frustrated when it continues to not be reality.
If, however, your concern is truly only that it's a poor experience for early and mid-level players, then the XP re-tunings should help take care of that in some part. And something more constructive to advocate for would be making all content up through T5 more accessible, so that early players can make their progression up to end-game faster. That is something that - I'm more than happy to inform you - is certainly on our list of things to do.
Building a fleet of revs takes weeks, apocs takes even longer without talking about coves. Punishers fleet with no xeno weapons takes less time than any of other cruisers. That is what frustrate people (my team mates). What is the point in building those fleets (because they need, maybe not cruisers but farming ones yes) which will take the same time or even longer than the end game fleet? Building times for lower levels (T2-T4) should be drastically reduced, to allow new players to feel the game, to enjoy their designs, even if they might lose battles... You should not dismiss the satisfaction of having achieved a goal, and setting the bar very high for low level goals is not a good idea
I think you are missing the point here Chris so I will elaborate further. You say this is a game of progression and to some degree you are right. There was a period in time in this game before crafting came out I had nothing to do but login and build a ship and come back a week later with some pvp in between. Now this is no longer the case.
But with the way the game is setup by the time a player gets to upgrade a fleet of ships in a Tier to mk 5 through playing the game (not buying it) the next tier is out and your new mk 5 fleet you just spent months building is now useless.
Take vsec hulls as an example. Reverb corenths were the ship you wanted with binary a while back. I started that Tier when it came out and eventually got all my ships to mk5 then Demon Corp came out and made them useless. Now the same thing happened with my mk 5 cov cruisers when Xeno came out. I have not launched them in ages.
The problem now is as we progress further down this tech path everything before it has no place in the game. With all the tech I played and obtained I am unable to fly it because it gets crushed by newer tech from higher tiers that are fighting in lower tiers due to bad XP and gating. Not only that but the new tech is so powerful it jumps the tech gap so much that the jump from previous tiers could still compete with each other that this last jump from demon to xeno kills it completely.
I am unable to use any of my ships that I spent time upgrading and building if it takes me over level 54.
Your comparison to a good RPG does not correlate to vega however because the game does not scale properly like a RPG to the level of difficulty you face or your opponent.
You wouldn't see a level 100 player in a RPG hitting level 20 players with end game tech because the developers know this would piss off there user base yet it seems to be acceptable here in vega.
New players will jump into this game and build rancs/gens/exos and start from the beginning then work up though the tech yet there are no Tier 7 versions of these basic starting ships for new players which is a bad thing.
I want to be able to fly all of the ships I build and be able to compete with other players of similar tech and strength and not be restricted by gating levels that seem to alter depending on what mood the dev team is in that week with zero notice of changes or any way to refit ships in a timely manner.
Games are supposed to be fun to play. I fail to see how players are enjoying being crushed by fleets so much stronger than them level 55 vs level 92
Moving onto my final point. I have seen alot of players leave this game recently, some from my own alliance and one guy I remember why he left and he said this in summary.
I used to love the diversity in this game. Figuring out ship builds to beat my opponent. Different combinations of weapons and fleet compositions but these new ships are 1 build does all. How many punishers have you seen being fitted with anything other than manifold or disrupters. When was the last time you saw anyone using projectile weapons other than infernal wave driver on demon corp ships.
Bringing new content out can be a good thing in a game to keep it fresh. But you are putting all players on a the same path with the same ship builds and configurations that there are no choices or diversity in how to set out fleets.
Whilst I do not want to go off topic as this is regarding gating, many of these points are linked together. But I wish someone at kix hq would take a step back and fix the issues of the current game meta before adding in more and more tech
The problem with this game is the power curves. Just look at the graphs I made. Said no vega conflict player ever
I think you are missing the point here Chris so I will elaborate further. You say this is a game of progression and to some degree you are right. There was a period in time in this game before crafting came out I had nothing to do but login and build a ship and come back a week later with some pvp in between. Now this is no longer the case.
But with the way the game is setup by the time a player gets to upgrade a fleet of ships in a Tier to mk 5 through playing the game (not buying it) the next tier is out and your new mk 5 fleet you just spent months building is now useless.
Take vsec hulls as an example. Reverb corenths were the ship you wanted with binary a while back. I started that Tier when it came out and eventually got all my ships to mk5 then Demon Corp came out and made them useless. Now the same thing happened with my mk 5 cov cruisers when Xeno came out. I have not launched them in ages.
The problem now is as we progress further down this tech path everything before it has no place in the game. With all the tech I played and obtained I am unable to fly it because it gets crushed by newer tech from higher tiers that are fighting in lower tiers due to bad XP and gating. Not only that but the new tech is so powerful it jumps the tech gap so much that the jump from previous tiers could still compete with each other that this last jump from demon to xeno kills it completely.
I am unable to use any of my ships that I spent time upgrading and building if it takes me over level 54.
Your comparison to a good RPG does not correlate to vega however because the game does not scale properly like a RPG to the level of difficulty you face or your opponent.
You wouldn't see a level 100 player in a RPG hitting level 20 players with end game tech because the developers know this would piss off there user base yet it seems to be acceptable here in vega.
New players will jump into this game and build rancs/gens/exos and start from the beginning then work up though the tech yet there are no Tier 7 versions of these basic starting ships for new players which is a bad thing.
I want to be able to fly all of the ships I build and be able to compete with other players of similar tech and strength and not be restricted by gating levels that seem to alter depending on what mood the dev team is in that week with zero notice of changes or any way to refit ships in a timely manner.
Games are supposed to be fun to play. I fail to see how players are enjoying being crushed by fleets so much stronger than them level 55 vs level 92
Moving onto my final point. I have seen alot of players leave this game recently, some from my own alliance and one guy I remember why he left and he said this in summary.
I used to love the diversity in this game. Figuring out ship builds to beat my opponent. Different combinations of weapons and fleet compositions but these new ships are 1 build does all. How many punishers have you seen being fitted with anything other than manifold or disrupters. When was the last time you saw anyone using projectile weapons other than infernal wave driver on demon corp ships.
Bringing new content out can be a good thing in a game to keep it fresh. But you are putting all players on a the same path with the same ship builds and configurations that there are no choices or diversity in how to set out fleets.
Whilst I do not want to go off topic as this is regarding gating, many of these points are linked together. But I wish someone at kix hq would take a step back and fix the issues of the current game meta before adding in more and more tech
Mr. Top Gear,
I would agree with most of your post. I just comment on the diversity. I think that goes down to players laziness to try new fittings, but is also Kixeye problem because if I want to try a new fitting it would take weeks or hundreds of dollars to test it, so it is easier to follow what has been proven to be effective. I just make an example, you the best to look at the numbers. Xeno beam on decimators vs heavy beam on decimators. On paper it seems that the Xeno version is the best. However if we look at the fittings we could find some interesting facts. Decimators have up to 50% resistance against xeno weapons, which means that the real damage by a Xeno beam is around 200 DPS. Most of the Decimators fleets do not have resistance against energy weapons or at max they can use ENAL, which can get a 25-30% avg resistance. I will make it short, avoiding more maths since will be boring and you can easily verify by yourself (or prove me wrong). A heavy rapture beam with the right specials, proper armor on the ships will just have between 5-10% less efficiency in destroying a comparable ship with Xeno beams. We all know that 5-10% difference can be easily compensated by the skills of the player. What is stopping us to try it? The huge fitting time... the longs fitting time are the reason why players are not willing to try new fittings! I am not sure I could explain clearly my though... it is a bit complicated
If it helps, think of a fantasy RPG - at the beginning of the game I have level 1 armor, and I work hard and get level 2 armor, then level 3. A lot farther down the road, I get level 10 armor. I'm not mad that my level 3 armor isn't as useful to me anymore, even though I worked hard and spent a lot of time to get it. I understand that the challenge and reward of obtaining level 3 armor allowed me to tackle the challenge of getting level 4 armor. Then, having level 4 armor helped me to get to level 5 armor.
Similar to that example, this is not a game in which you get to the end-game and every piece of tech or hull you ever owned is useful to you for end-game content. If that is your expectation, you're going to be frustrated when it continues to not be reality.
I'm a lover of fantasy and I spent years playing D&D.
If I can steal that analogy, maybe then YOU can understand what it is like for some of us on the other side of the trench.
You get level 1 armor. Great. You go into the cave and fight goblins with it, only to find that they have weapons that bypass level 1 armor. So you grind and fight to be able to afford level 2 armor from "Tim the Wizard's Magic Store". You get the armor and head off into the cave to show those nasty goblins who's the boss. Except, they're not goblins anymore. Magically, overnight, the goblins have transformed into ogres, and guess what? Their weapons bypass level 2 armor. So you beat down on the ogres and say "You know what? I'm going to save my coins and buy me an "Ogre slaying sword!". You get the sword, run into the cave of ogres, except the ogres now have magic resistance, so your "ogre slaying sword" is now also useless...
By now, if this was an actual D&D game, the Dungeon Master would be pummeled to death with players throwing their dice at him in frustration.
Are there any plans to sort this mess out or do we simply have to put up with it and watch the game deteriorate further as more and more tech is added to the game
Regarding the XP values, as we've stated already in the April WIP we are re-tuning those to be a more accurate reflection of fleet power.
Regarding older tech you have no longer being useful...this is a game of progression. If you have reached the Tier 6 stage of the game, then you should largely only be building Tier 6 tech. You've passed the point in which Tier 4 tech would still be relevant to the level at which you're competing. Do you know for whom Tier 4 tech is useful? People who were just at Tier 3.
If it helps, think of a fantasy RPG - at the beginning of the game I have level 1 armor, and I work hard and get level 2 armor, then level 3. A lot farther down the road, I get level 10 armor. I'm not mad that my level 3 armor isn't as useful to me anymore, even though I worked hard and spent a lot of time to get it. I understand that the challenge and reward of obtaining level 3 armor allowed me to tackle the challenge of getting level 4 armor. Then, having level 4 armor helped me to get to level 5 armor.
Similar to that example, this is not a game in which you get to the end-game and every piece of tech or hull you ever owned is useful to you for end-game content. If that is your expectation, you're going to be frustrated when it continues to not be reality.
If, however, your concern is truly only that it's a poor experience for early and mid-level players, then the XP re-tunings should help take care of that in some part. And something more constructive to advocate for would be making all content up through T5 more accessible, so that early players can make their progression up to end-game faster. That is something that - I'm more than happy to inform you - is certainly on our list of things to do.
You make an excellent point on progression @cm Chris but your argument is flawed. Surely you see this. Glad to hear about some XP improvements that will help the middle advance.
The jump from Vega to ISC to DC was a natural or linear progression as mentioned by TopGear...although the mk upgrades allowed for more subtle pocket in the game where power creep started causing problems. The jump to Xeno was game altering, and many are arguing, game breaking. Factor in that there are even large jumps within the faction T6 (regular to Xeno amor or weapons) and the power spread is huge.
As mentioned at least a hundred ways, this impacts gating negatively. Before Xeno, there was not a difference in lvl that resulted in a base 40 levels below a fleet getting crushed. Now it is prevalent. Kix anticipated this and changed gating to 60. Some applauded this, some raged. The point is, Kix knew this was going to offset the game enough that they tried to get ahead of it. Kix than overcorrect to 45 base/55 fleet which was a mistake too, but now the communication is that this is the direction the game is heading. Come now, mistakes are made and owned up to frequently in event tuning and updates that don't pan out. Nerfs, buffs, etc...
How can you explain that this level of dissatisfaction exists yet we keep hearing this is as intended?
After reading your CM announcement in the forum and this paragraph, I ask you a question with idea, why not organize a players council?, A small group that is very active and participates in the game in great alliances and coalitions, That they have information from the majority of the community, and regularly organize meetings with them to make the change of information, and to be able to improve these times in a better way now that a change comes with you from CM, is a humble opinion, I have Lost many Friends In the last months in Vega, and I have less and less desire to continue
You must be new here. That's already been tried. Didn't work past meeting 1.
Almost 2 years ago in Vega, it must have existed before, the previous year there was a meeting by these dates and it was not so bad
I agree with this 100% all my DC fleets are 60+ and even they are no match for any 70+ (unless the pilot is a complete idiot) Xeno fleet. 55-60 are basically cannon fodder. The argument about the high end players not having anything to smash with their new fleets is bull, the vast majority of the community have DC already and have been flying them around for some time. the community has been asking for the new gating changes long before xeno was released, and we were asking for those changes to give mid level players a break from the OP DC fleets. Anyone who has played this game for some time knows that if you are fighting someone who knows how to build fleets and can fly, +-5 levels is a big deal in this game, so I don't see how you can justify the argument that an up to 36 lvl spread in fleet size is justifiable in any way!
So the real problem is that when you guys changed the PVE meta to gearing making flying essentially useless, you also made it the new meta in FVF above lvl 55 and even below that in many cases with infernal wave Damocles fleets being flown at that level and such. This change with the limited tech and no direct damage bonuses from class to class amongst xeno ships has made it virtually useless flying at that level for many players and for those that do its still very difficult to say that the skill/tech ratio is even anywhere near fair. you've taken single ships within a fleet and given them to same health and damage comparable to many fleets being flown around just 6 months ago. And its been noticed. I don't wanna be a nay sayer anymore but coming from a small but top 20 alliance, we have had many of our heaviest coiners literally quit the game. That's revenue. The whole reason many top players played the game as long as we have is because there is a finesse to flying in this game that is unrivaled by many games where skill played a very large part in winning the fight and tech not so much. A skilled pilot used to be able to take out a wide array of ships and fits and regardless of the tech, with good piloting they could take the day. Now with the shift in the meta to gearing(as previously mentioned).
As far as jacking up the xeno XP levels, that really doesn't matter for anything to be completely honest. It doesn't matter whether the fleet level is 56 or 100, anything above level 55 can attack. What I originally proposed and was kind of lost to the winds was having 2 gates. One at level 55, and one at lvl 70. Anything between 55 and 70 was fair game for one another, anything 70 and above was fair game to each other. With obviously the 5+- at each gate meaning a 70 could still attack a 65 but would also be susceptible to attack from those higher fleets. As it stands, the hardest counter to the punishers is currently still either another(better geared) punisher fleet, which nobody wins from good skilled piloting, even if you are an expert at juggling ships, or a battleship fleet.
Which brings me to my next point: the annihilator. Can you please explain to me what the point of having such a massive sub capital non flag ship is. As far as we can tell, the other xeno ships have normal signature radii to their hulls but we have all seen the glitches in which the annihilator hit box is white and nearly 4 times the size of any other battleship. That when coupled with the lack of speed inherent to battleships and the inability to adequately cover its fleet mates makes the ship a completely different breed of battleship. Unless you are starting in a loyal battalion formation, its so large that the formations bump it out of position off the gun, the fleet takes up twice as much space in the battlefield and its makes it rather ineffective other then the fact that it has the hitpoints and tech to brawl to the death with other xeno class ships. I have seen numerous fights where the ships size was a hinderance to flying it. Its definitely one ship I wanted and wanted to fly but the ship is so bulky that its not fun to fly. Its literally like flying a giant hunk of bait in a freighter with a lotta damage and ready to be swarmed by cutters. Yes it does massive damage and can win fights but why is it not the same size as other ships of its class.
My summation and I would like to see your counter to it, is that by taking the meta in PVE away from SKILL and towards what kind of tech you have fitted, also changed the meta of FVF to how good your gear was and not how well you can actually fly(play the game) and your level of skill becomes completely replaced by the size of your wallet. The jokes on you, I know multiple guys who were dropping a grand a month on this game easily who just quit playing and gave their accounts away.
I would also like to add: Thank you for actually responding with a very well thought out response and welcome back to the community.
Great stuff so far, yes of course new tech will also be used in pvp and pvb
If you had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on fleets over the gating cap (level 60).
And it should be that way if you ask me
MKE xeno punishers can take down any mk5 Demon Corp fleet (which is the 2nd best faction in the game right now) without breaking a sweat
You see, let's bring a specific example
Mk5 damocales with infernal wave (a very popular fitting nowadays)
Have it fight any cruiser fleet (up to t5 cruisers) and that that cruiser fleet will die and barely take down one damocales before dying
Mke punishers come and can kill the entire mk5 Damocales fleet BEFORE losing one punisher
Now is that balanced? No.. Absolutely not
With the power spike xeno has against all other factions, it shouldn't be able to hit other factions which is why I think the pvp gating should be high, 70 if you ask me personally (because Demon Corp and iron star can easily achieve 60-65)
>
Well
Bases are always meant to be the big boss that is tough to beat, they should never be easy to take down
And with xeno, they can 3 star several bases in a row without recalling
Is that balanced? again the answer is no
A while after the base gating of +/-5 on bases people returned to Sniping, which is an art in taking down bases compared to blind and careless rush
And one could get a lvl 53 sniper fleet that when used right can take down almost any base Lvl 48-52 (which forces the player to learn the skill, which makes the game more fun)
But even if you wanna insist on rushing
I saw many players use 2 fleets of punishers back to back (each fleet had 3-4 puns)
They would bring down the bridge to a low hp with the first hit
And then with the 2nd hit kill the bridge and a few other modules and get the 2 star eventually
And that wasn't bad at all
At least then one had to worry about where you position ships to get a better result and all
Which again pushes for skillful play, not undeserved victories
Yes it sucks that we never have time for pvp anymore
But who's fault is that
It's not the community that makes up those events
It's you guys
You really should tune down the events.. The whole community begs you
>
and again its not the community's fault
You released the punisher, waited until every coiner coined themselves a fleet of those
And two days later you suddenly changed the gating rules
Had you been more transparent and announced that you're going to change the rules ahead of time (preferably before the new season even began)
You would've received way less negative feedback about the changes
So again, that is not our fault, it's yours
What reward one gets when their Lvl 55 non xeno (probably even non t5) gets flattened by xeno ships and not being able to even do 1% of dmg
Zero.. Zero reward for the Lvl 55 fleet
Which is again why xeno should only be able to fight xeno
The original gate change did result in more pvp
When going out with a lvl 53 fleet knowing only a 48-58 can hit you
It means that it'll be a fleet with a tech close to yours
Which is good, which is fair for BOTH sides
But now, it's the exact opposite of fair for the Lvl 55 fleet to be attacked by a lvl 90 that they can't do a single thing about
Xeno can handle xeno
But nothing else (t5 or lower) can handle xeno
''i never met anyone like him Before'' -Elon Musk,
''i wish i couldve explored the void as much as he has'' -Stephen Hawking,
''this dude is fu*king amazing'' -Eminem
I had actually had the same idea for the gating and talked about it to my alliance mates. The two tiers would further balance the game keeping ships among themselves more appropriately. Who knows now much extra programming it would take to do two tiers but that would make most sense considering the enormous power gap that xeno brings to the game.
The crazy thing is, having multiple people with that same thought which is pretty abstract but simply implemented should maybe be a sign. Lol. But what do I know. I'm just the customer.
Haha, well if my understanding of the purpose of gating is correct then its not that surprising other reasonable people would have the same idea. Balance should maintain both fairness and challenge. Even when ISC came out it was quite a stretch to see the gating rules as fair especially when people were python spamming until they released the MK system, after they made cutters vulnerable, which returned some measure of balance back allowing for the idea of counters. Old OP fleets now had something that could possibly take them down. The release of DC and infernal weapons started to throw off the balance and really tip the scales towards coiners. They have great damage but the fitting times are unbearably long. Only coiners can realistically fit them and use them. Now Xeno makes everything seem like paper, even other xeno. Ships need to be separated.
My counter to this:
- When the gating was reset to 55 (from 60) for fleets, it was a gripe, but not so much since the players still could use older tech and put out fleets that are less than lvl 55 (lvl 54 fleets escorted by a lvl 59 was fairly common). It gave players a choice. Hence if they have a fleet that is 55+ they knew what they were in for.
- For bases, the player does not have a choice. If your base is 45+ (which most bases are) then you don't choose whether you can or cannot participate. This is where the biggest user concerns were. When you limit a player's ability, they feel fairly helpless and hence are frustrated.
If you had left the base gating at 50, then the really advanced end stage players will have bases that are going to be one click destroyed , but it will also be that they have better fleets to try and protect their base. (possibly Xeno ships an weapons to counter the fleets).
In all env, the most enjoyable pvp or pvb are those where people feel they have been involved in a fair fight.
Something to think about.
If so they have to make sure its not full of people with huge egos who loves to hear their own voice. They do not represent the majority of players. They may have represented a good portion of the coin though.
why would you assume that a 50 base is a mega coiner because that what your implying with this. not all 50s are elite players with elite tech and massive depth to there pockets, i am a 50 nearly 51 i dont coin i have some xeno ships and there are just that. so no gating shouldnt be 50 so others can hide at 49.
the gating should be 45 for fleets nad bases, BUT the level should be +/- 10 from 44 - 74 then at 75 for fleets and above should be free for all. you sir sound like one of those scared to be based i know there probably is a phobia of the repair button but try to make it less noticible
The only people who don't seem to realize the game is screwed is kix. So far from Chris it's the same old crap. Gating is fine, new battleship is fine blah blah blah.
That could take years (erm days in non-kix timing) to develop and test.
While the base gating may make sense due to current content, it doesn't leave a very good impression of your company's ability to plan ahead. With the Xeno stuff, testing should have made it very clear that if those ships were not restricted from PvB, then you were going to have a problem with bases.
The gating is more of a problem with FvF though. I was farming for res, had just finished a Vega fleet when I was attacked by a fleet 30 lvls higher than me. I had no chance. I don't think I even depleted the shields of the attacking fleet. So not only did I get utterly stomped and a 14-15 hour repair, but I had 90+% of my resources taken by the attacking fleet. At that point, I just logged off, because several 80+ fleets were attacking anyone they could, all the while being complete jerks... (would use a much more colorful term, but censorship) in sector chat. I am certain I am not the only one leaving the game when crap like that happens. The current gating changes encourage bullying and I'm not sure that's what your intent is with the game. If it is, just let us know.
I never said mega coiners. But it would be a fair assumption wouldn't that a fair majority of bases that are 50+ are going to have fb13 and xeno fleets ? You don't coin is an outlier. We can take a fairly educated guess that most with lvl 50+ bases , do. Hence my query stands. As for your personal comments, since you dont coin, and i suck, bring your fleets and let's see how it goes
Now that our bases are constantly threatened by xeno invasions when can we expect our bases to be upgraded AGAIN???? Hopefully not as long as last time. Hopefully there is more than two weapons we can rely on (storm /Gemini driver) and weapon type (projectile). Hopefully it's fixed before tier7 and hopefully we won't have to worry about bases for years to come #Hopfully PS. Hopefully cm Chris responds to more than one comment
There is far too much of a jump in power between T5 and T6- that should be evident from how broken the gating is.
The power curve needs to be *at most* linear, or it should by asymptotic in the Y axis (as you go up higher in tiers, the jump in power between tiers is lower the higher you go.
T6 does the opposite- it is an exponential jump in power in a system where gating was designed to work within a linear or asymptotic power curve. It should not be a surprise that the proliferation of Xeno equipment has broken the gating rules.
So instead of adjusting gating to keep the lower tiers from being brushed aside, Kixeye did the opposite and lowered gating because they thought there wasn't enough Xeno PvB? That's insane. You released ships with an exponential jump in power, and you expect bases that have a hard limit on progression to be able to compete with them? No.
Basically, what it boils down to is that the coiners who put a lot of "effort" hitting the gold colored button didn't have enough easy targets. The base gating should never have been lowered to 45, rather the bases should've been given a way to come up to parity with the new fleets you've unleashed on them. Don't worry about there not being enough l50 bases... enough people will put in the "effort" or coining it that they will start popping up- in the meantime, there is a continuous stream of High end PvE events for people to throw their L90 Xeno fleets against.
There is actually a second problem- dumbed down punisher fleets- there are still folks out there who are using small numbers of Xeno ships without shields (using armor and resistances for protection) with massive firepower) that are able to stay below l55 - this is the same issue we had with the pre-rebalance VSEC battleship kiting fleets that came in at L34-36 and could murder low level farming fleets almost with impunity (but actually had to be flown well to do it- unlike today where the right dumbed down punisher build can rip apart most L50-L55 fleets on auto (except maybe marked Hellfires with VF vectors and net torps flown very well)- this basically reduces the effective diversity in the 50-55 meta to mkd hellfires/vf vector net builds since everything else is meat on the table- even the more interesting no-carrier builds out there are essentially useless when Xeno troll fleets are around.
Basically, pivoting the power curve the way Kixeye did with T6, opened Pandora's box.
For those of you who don't get the math terminology, here's a crude drawing to explain it.
Here's a mk1 example of just how unblanaced the game now is with the XP system and current gating rules.
These ships are apparently within 3 levels of each other.
Same weapon range
Same Defence rating 9084 vs 9090
Same speed
Punisher has 1hr 22m 25s lower repair time
Punisher has 322 more dps
Punisher has lower build time
So my question to you "@CM Chris" is why would any players bother making any content other than Xeno.
Literally all the ships I have built before this season is essentially useless to me and 90% of them I have not launched in months
They have no alien resistance so are no good for events, the repair times are longer and the dps is lower. These are the ships new players are trying to acquire and upgrade yet you are allowing them to be killed by Xeno ships with awful XP and gating ranges.
You maybe catering for the end gamers acquiring the new tech by giving them targets to kill but you are essentially killing up and coming players off and also destroying the game balance for mid gamers and making all pre Xeno tech obsolete and useless apart from a select few infernal demon corp ships and flagships
Are there any plans to sort this mess out or do we simply have to put up with it and watch the game deteriorate further as more and more tech is added to the game
Looking at the last two posts (Vespo and Top Gear). The only way the gating would be fair would be to narrow the window. That would mean that a level 80 fleet can only engage other level 80 fleets. Looking at the power curve, it's the only solution I can see. The higher your fleet level is, the narrower the +/- levels of fleets you can engage in becomes.
I think at this stage, Kixeye might need to seriously consider creating "leagues" to replace the gating system.
Other online games do it and it's simple and it's actually fun. Each leage is tiered (Bronze, Silver and Gold leagues for example). Basically if you challenge someone "higher ranked" than you, you can increase your ranking in the league but you can only attack someone in the same league as you. Attacking someone lower than you is still possible, but won't increase your standing. Once you score X amount of victories, you increase leagues (Go from Bronze to silver). At the end of the week (or month), each member of the league is given a "league prize". Obviously, the higher league you are in, the better the prizes.
Very clearly presented and discussion is spot-on. Please comment @cm chris
Regarding the XP values, as we've stated already in the April WIP we are re-tuning those to be a more accurate reflection of fleet power.
Regarding older tech you have no longer being useful...this is a game of progression. If you have reached the Tier 6 stage of the game, then you should largely only be building Tier 6 tech. You've passed the point in which Tier 4 tech would still be relevant to the level at which you're competing. Do you know for whom Tier 4 tech is useful? People who were just at Tier 3.
If it helps, think of a fantasy RPG - at the beginning of the game I have level 1 armor, and I work hard and get level 2 armor, then level 3. A lot farther down the road, I get level 10 armor. I'm not mad that my level 3 armor isn't as useful to me anymore, even though I worked hard and spent a lot of time to get it. I understand that the challenge and reward of obtaining level 3 armor allowed me to tackle the challenge of getting level 4 armor. Then, having level 4 armor helped me to get to level 5 armor.
Similar to that example, this is not a game in which you get to the end-game and every piece of tech or hull you ever owned is useful to you for end-game content. If that is your expectation, you're going to be frustrated when it continues to not be reality.
If, however, your concern is truly only that it's a poor experience for early and mid-level players, then the XP re-tunings should help take care of that in some part. And something more constructive to advocate for would be making all content up through T5 more accessible, so that early players can make their progression up to end-game faster. That is something that - I'm more than happy to inform you - is certainly on our list of things to do.
Building a fleet of revs takes weeks, apocs takes even longer without talking about coves. Punishers fleet with no xeno weapons takes less time than any of other cruisers. That is what frustrate people (my team mates). What is the point in building those fleets (because they need, maybe not cruisers but farming ones yes) which will take the same time or even longer than the end game fleet?
Building times for lower levels (T2-T4) should be drastically reduced, to allow new players to feel the game, to enjoy their designs, even if they might lose battles... You should not dismiss the satisfaction of having achieved a goal, and setting the bar very high for low level goals is not a good idea
But with the way the game is setup by the time a player gets to upgrade a fleet of ships in a Tier to mk 5 through playing the game (not buying it) the next tier is out and your new mk 5 fleet you just spent months building is now useless.
Take vsec hulls as an example. Reverb corenths were the ship you wanted with binary a while back. I started that Tier when it came out and eventually got all my ships to mk5 then Demon Corp came out and made them useless. Now the same thing happened with my mk 5 cov cruisers when Xeno came out. I have not launched them in ages.
The problem now is as we progress further down this tech path everything before it has no place in the game. With all the tech I played and obtained I am unable to fly it because it gets crushed by newer tech from higher tiers that are fighting in lower tiers due to bad XP and gating. Not only that but the new tech is so powerful it jumps the tech gap so much that the jump from previous tiers could still compete with each other that this last jump from demon to xeno kills it completely.
I am unable to use any of my ships that I spent time upgrading and building if it takes me over level 54.
Your comparison to a good RPG does not correlate to vega however because the game does not scale properly like a RPG to the level of difficulty you face or your opponent.
You wouldn't see a level 100 player in a RPG hitting level 20 players with end game tech because the developers know this would piss off there user base yet it seems to be acceptable here in vega.
New players will jump into this game and build rancs/gens/exos and start from the beginning then work up though the tech yet there are no Tier 7 versions of these basic starting ships for new players which is a bad thing.
I want to be able to fly all of the ships I build and be able to compete with other players of similar tech and strength and not be restricted by gating levels that seem to alter depending on what mood the dev team is in that week with zero notice of changes or any way to refit ships in a timely manner.
Games are supposed to be fun to play. I fail to see how players are enjoying being crushed by fleets so much stronger than them level 55 vs level 92
Moving onto my final point. I have seen alot of players leave this game recently, some from my own alliance and one guy I remember why he left and he said this in summary.
I used to love the diversity in this game. Figuring out ship builds to beat my opponent. Different combinations of weapons and fleet compositions but these new ships are 1 build does all. How many punishers have you seen being fitted with anything other than manifold or disrupters. When was the last time you saw anyone using projectile weapons other than infernal wave driver on demon corp ships.
Bringing new content out can be a good thing in a game to keep it fresh. But you are putting all players on a the same path with the same ship builds and configurations that there are no choices or diversity in how to set out fleets.
Whilst I do not want to go off topic as this is regarding gating, many of these points are linked together. But I wish someone at kix hq would take a step back and fix the issues of the current game meta before adding in more and more tech
Mr. Top Gear,
I would agree with most of your post. I just comment on the diversity.
I think that goes down to players laziness to try new fittings, but is also Kixeye problem because if I want to try a new fitting it would take weeks or hundreds of dollars to test it, so it is easier to follow what has been proven to be effective.
I just make an example, you the best to look at the numbers. Xeno beam on decimators vs heavy beam on decimators. On paper it seems that the Xeno version is the best. However if we look at the fittings we could find some interesting facts. Decimators have up to 50% resistance against xeno weapons, which means that the real damage by a Xeno beam is around 200 DPS. Most of the Decimators fleets do not have resistance against energy weapons or at max they can use ENAL, which can get a 25-30% avg resistance.
I will make it short, avoiding more maths since will be boring and you can easily verify by yourself (or prove me wrong).
A heavy rapture beam with the right specials, proper armor on the ships will just have between 5-10% less efficiency in destroying a comparable ship with Xeno beams. We all know that 5-10% difference can be easily compensated by the skills of the player. What is stopping us to try it? The huge fitting time... the longs fitting time are the reason why players are not willing to try new fittings!
I am not sure I could explain clearly my though... it is a bit complicated
I'm a lover of fantasy and I spent years playing D&D.
If I can steal that analogy, maybe then YOU can understand what it is like for some of us on the other side of the trench.
You get level 1 armor. Great. You go into the cave and fight goblins with it, only to find that they have weapons that bypass level 1 armor. So you grind and fight to be able to afford level 2 armor from "Tim the Wizard's Magic Store". You get the armor and head off into the cave to show those nasty goblins who's the boss. Except, they're not goblins anymore. Magically, overnight, the goblins have transformed into ogres, and guess what? Their weapons bypass level 2 armor. So you beat down on the ogres and say "You know what? I'm going to save my coins and buy me an "Ogre slaying sword!". You get the sword, run into the cave of ogres, except the ogres now have magic resistance, so your "ogre slaying sword" is now also useless...
By now, if this was an actual D&D game, the Dungeon Master would be pummeled to death with players throwing their dice at him in frustration.
You make an excellent point on progression @cm Chris but your argument is flawed. Surely you see this. Glad to hear about some XP improvements that will help the middle advance.
The jump from Vega to ISC to DC was a natural or linear progression as mentioned by TopGear...although the mk upgrades allowed for more subtle pocket in the game where power creep started causing problems. The jump to Xeno was game altering, and many are arguing, game breaking. Factor in that there are even large jumps within the faction T6 (regular to Xeno amor or weapons) and the power spread is huge.
As mentioned at least a hundred ways, this impacts gating negatively. Before Xeno, there was not a difference in lvl that resulted in a base 40 levels below a fleet getting crushed. Now it is prevalent. Kix anticipated this and changed gating to 60. Some applauded this, some raged. The point is, Kix knew this was going to offset the game enough that they tried to get ahead of it. Kix than overcorrect to 45 base/55 fleet which was a mistake too, but now the communication is that this is the direction the game is heading. Come now, mistakes are made and owned up to frequently in event tuning and updates that don't pan out. Nerfs, buffs, etc...
How can you explain that this level of dissatisfaction exists yet we keep hearing this is as intended?