Cm_Chris, gating question
Hi Chris.
We never really got an answer with this one, and since you're actually seeming to engage, I wonder if we might get a proper bit of feedback. Help us to understand
When the fvf gating dropped from 60 to 55, and the base gating to 45 I ran a poll. 88% of players wanted the gating left at 60. 11%, liked the change. 395 people voted.
Could you please explain a little about why kixeye ignored this really very clear preference and dropped it?
The 60 gate was one of the most popular things kixeye have done. It kept the legacy fleets relevant and fun whilst allowing the primacy of the Xeno tech. Why did they walk it back?
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By the way, that fleet is all corinths. What do you think would win, fleet of punishers or fleet of corinthians? Obviously the punishers. It's completely unfair for the people who are finally starting to get a taste of power to have it all come crashing down on them.
FvF is at least avoidable if you're careful. Having a level 45 base wiped out by ships so far above them is worse. No matter how well you build your defenses or try to protect your resources the Xeno ships have so much cargo capacity even a full billion resources could be stolen without anything you can do to protect yourself.
^
You're right,
I've seen lvl 80+ fleets flying around more and more every day and it really isnt fair to allow a lvl 55 to be hit by a 80. If ur in a sector with major alliances you are starting to see more lvl 88 fleets hitting boss targets and poor noobs hitting a hive with a lvl 56 Valhalla carrier fleet.
I really think once all of xeno is done we will have to revisit the gating cuz the destroyer and carrier will probably push fleets over lvl 100 and then its just gonna be ridiculous for gating to stay at 55.
Maybe 75 would be reasonable.
Plus unlike bases, fleets gating is very important, cuz base weapons can be released to help them cope, but this won't happen with fleets.
When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+). If we had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on bases over the gating cap (level 60). So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets.
From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).
So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.
TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.
So then when r u gonna fix the escorting problem? My lvl 57 jav fleet can't escort anything above lvl 62 because it's still acting under the gating rules of +/-5.
Hopefully going to see that next update. Anticipated change is that Javs will be able to escort anything level 20+ but that's subject to tuning prior to the downtime.
^Nice!
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Congrats on the new position Chris!
Oh n Its nice to hear that you have been with the game and behind the scene, since it was in flash, it makes a great difference. :-)
CM Chris, the stats from kell2016 tell, that nearly 9 from 10 VC-players don't understand the latest gating-change. Meanwhile in the game you doesn't need any kind of skill to win a fight with a level 70/80/90 xeno-fleet. Kixeye should believe their player-base: Many of them like PvP, most of them don't want to use xeno for this, nearly all of them hate the new gating.
Re-change the gating.....
Thanks
Sooooo.... because you made this crazy power creeping xeno stuff,
and then realized that not ALL players instantly coined full xeno fleets (surpise!),
so those who did this didn't find hundreds of easy targets for their new toys,
you then sacrified all lower players to give the "heavy coiners" enough prey to feed their overpowered fleets??
Sure, for a while it's probably fun to bully every player with a less mighty wallet, but how long?
And how long will it take that these bullied players just quit because they realize that they are not wanted in this game anymore?
And next, with whom should the remaining players play after that exodus?
Aaaand finally, because xeno fleets kill the base so quick, they don't even get a lot of damage, so even less coins spent by those who could afford them.
I think xeno ships SHOULDNT be able to hit bases. After all, it was built to be used for npc's.
So basically, your hands are tied between letting overpowered stuff run rampant and destroying the metagame, or restrict it heavily to only other overpowered stuff and thus diminish the reward for obtaining the tech.
Fair enough, but you could have avoided this mess by not introducing obviously ludicrously overpowered stuff to begin with. Just saying.
It was expressly stated that the Xeno content would not make the lower level tier 5 and 5.5 content (ISC and DC) content Obsolete. This has happened though as the gating levels allow people with fully marked up (Elite) Xeno crafts to attack people with those ships and get an"EASY" win.
This should never be about making a small minority of players who are willing to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars happy because they get to beat everyone below them. I get the Base Gating, there are no bases above level 51 or 52, but that's not OUR fault. That's YOUR fault for forgetting the base premise of this game.
FVF was at the beginning not the CORE meta of the game. FVF was used to keep other players from your base. (which is why there's no actual rewards worked into FVF... I understand the mechanics of the game pretty well) So while the people paying into the game were screaming and crying to get their Power Trip Addiction Fix (By smashing everyone weaker around them) Kixeye hasn't really released anything new for bases or found ways to enforce the idea that Base Hitting was the most efficient way of grabbing Resources (Hence the fact that there's a res Bonus for successful base hits.
The easiest fix would be to extend Tier 6 all year long, using the second half of the season to introduce base-centric tech that allows the players to build bases that would reach level 70+ . Will it piss off the PVP player? Sure it will, but to neglect something that at one point was pretty much the core tennent of the game just so more revenue will funnel in, isn't healthy for the game. You have to build the challenges back in when you take them away. That's how this game IS supposed to work.. Not ramping up DPS on ships and leaving everything else in the game back to where it was set in 2015... Just saying.
Chris, congrats! I really appreciate the time to explain the reasoning behind gating. That said, there is still a problem with it as is. I am sure someone with your experience and knowledge of the forum activity is well-versed so I won't bore you with rehashing all of it. In summary, from my perspective, bases should have had the opportunity to gain XP and lvl up to meet Xeno. Bring gating down to accommodate Xeno vs base or fleet was unprecedented. It was even mentioned after the fact that base improvements were in the works.
I remember when a level 52 fleet was about the capability of the fleet bay. There were level 45 bases at that time. Even then, a well planned strategy of rush and sniper could kill a base. Now there are the 45 - 50 (a few elite 51, maybe a 52) lvl bases facing 70, 75, 80+ so the balance is completely gone.
I know you understand all of this, bringingme to my questions; how and when will it get fixed? Will it get fixed?
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until I read this. Welcome kix poison chalice holder 2017. The gating changes are nothing short of insane and idiotic. Start as you mean to go on I guess ; a pile of crap to cover up why you want more money. Get a new job, turn and run and don't look back.
While I don't fully agree with your explanation I appreciate you taking the time to share your insights with the community. You do raise several valid points regarding level 60 gating rules preventing Xeno ships from engaging in most non PvE experiences. I continue to believe that, at least with bases, some consideration needs to be taken. Since, as you mentioned, there are no level 60 bases a level 60 gate would exclude Xeno content entirely.
Until new Xeno-defenses are available perhaps the rules regarding base shields (the period of invulnerability) could be temporarily modified. No level 45 base can stand a chance at more than slightly annoying a massive level 90 Xeno fleet and the cargo capacity of those fleets allow enormous amounts of resources to be taken, over 100 million by sniping a single module. If they come in and 3-star a base you get a 24-hour shield but if they steal half a billion resources by killing one storage module at a time you get nothing. Having a certain number, or percentage, of resources taken within a particular time frame could also add a shield. That would at least slow down the looting. Let somebody either destroy the whole base and provide a 24-hour shield or take millions of resources but prevent them from taking billions. Another option would be to remove the 5x multiplier for stolen cargo if a fleet's capacity exceeds a preset amount. Or, make it a sliding scale
< 2.5m cargo capacity = 5x
2,5m-5m cargo capacity = 4x
5m+ = 3x up to 20 million
Something like that. With 12 storage modules they couldn't steal more than 240m resources before you logged on and initiated repairs. I prefer just adding a shield though since it is a simpler implementation.
So does that mean we can have our jav fleet be any lvl also or do they have to 55+? Would be nice to not worry about my jav getting smashed by a full fleet of mk6 punishers
That being said, everyone that made the unknown mistake of letting their base get to lvl 45 without first completing FB13 is now the primary target for heavy resource storage. And when over 100 million can be taken at a time by one of these resource pack mule fleets, it makes it nearly impossible to accomplish if you're anywhere near a resource hungry player with a fist full of Xeno tech.
CM Chris your response pretty much sum up the current Gating rules are here to entertain mega coiners.
I am dying to see how many NEW mega coiners this dying game can attract.
Most current players stick around because of the time and money of our lives spent in this dying game cannot be recuperated.
At this rate you won't have any or new players to sustain your mega coiners. It's will be curtain down for vega pretty soon!
Inappreciated the reply of CM Crhis, i disagree with part of it. Before changing the gating bases should have been made able to fight...and I do not thinknit takes alot of coding to increase the firepower of base defences, we have seen it done in few days.
What wonders me is if really is a time issue, or just Kixeye wants to make some players happy with weak bases. I am not convinced of them been straighforward on that
Firstly, thankyou for the thoughtful and helpful reply. You have no idea how nice it is to know that these concerns are being heard, rather than just dissppearing into the void.
I take your point about having stuff to use the xeno tech on. Certainly with bases. Not sure that applies so much in FVF, as there are plenty of high level fleets tooling around, and a gate of 60 for FVF certainly would not be too restrictive.
Its really good to hear that there is an appreciation that the playing field is a bit bumpy at the moment and that it will be leveled. I had a fight yesterday between a bunch of furies and a carrier against 5 elite punishers with the same carrier. It was not what you might call a balanced encounter
Can I very respectfully suggest that even if the basing situation is left until the bases get some love (which they very sorely need), the FVF playing field could be somewhat leveled really very easily by restoring the level 60 cap? The only targets that would deprive the Xeno fleets of are tier 4ish fleets. Leaves almost any DC or xeno fleets, which is most of them, as legitimate targets.
Thanks again for your kind attention to this concern.
Although I appreciate the time taken to consider usability I think the majority of the community is more conflicted with the balance of xeno content. With no base counter, xeno hulls should have no place in PvB. FvF PvP is different and I am sure many players can give examples of xeno vs non-xeno PvP occuring where the non-xeno were effective although these situations are rare and require pretty specific circumstances. By allowing xeno content, full or nearly full xeno fleets, to participate in PvB you are further degrading the balance and skill level required to play this game diminishing the value of play time. At the free-for-all base level there is essentially no point in having any defense. Please reconsider PvB gating rules.
Gating rules should be:
Fleets: +-5 or maybe up to lv59 and from lv60 +10 -5
And for bases: up to 44 +-5 and from 45 +10 -5
The Javelin should handle all fleets....from lv10 to 100
So, basically, you are saying you felt those using money to make Xeno fleets fast should have free reign to kill bases and non-Xeno fleets. Once the less spending masses start to get Xeno fleets ready you will make changes to allow bases defend again against those Xeno fleets?
EDIT: Actually this is even worse for those spending less money. Once they get the Xeno fleets ready you roll out content making the bases of heavy spender untouchable. The noncoiners will wait months before they have the bases refitted.
No exactly... but seems they want to give a premium to higher spenders... like airlines do for their frequent fliers. Questionable if you look to be fair, not so if you look at the business point of view
This was a valid argument except that if the product you are extending to a F2P market is no longer fun or possible for free, you will lose your player base/cannon fodder/call it what you want, and then those elite will be left to bash each other. Thus, the temporary benefit to them is gone...Plus...There are plenty of people who claim to spend money on this game adding their voice to the arguments.
Mr. Chris, welcome to the **** sessions!
You original reply in this post had many visible issue we see.
You stated that the gating for bases HAD to be dropped to enable players the ability to attack bases, especially "those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content". Can you please define effort? To me effort in a game, is spending time, on the game, in the game, grinding away hours.
Effort is defined as vigorous or determined attempt.
Effort should not be defined by our wallet size. Effort does not mean I spent 10's of thousands of coins to build a MK-E fleet of punishers (which I would do if I saw them being Over powered).
The absolute most effort is by the middle to near end gamers. The ones that have to grind away countless hours of an event to obtain just a few items in the store. Not spend 1 hour and be able to purchase the entire store.
Those that put in the effort are the ones that deserved some sort of protection against an obviously overpower fleet. Then they have their level 55 fleet (which can be mediocre tech with mediocre ships) be absolutely destroyed with zero repair time by 6 MK-E punishers.
You stated their aren't that many level 60+ fleets flying around. This is untrue, all end gamers had at least 3 fleets that were over level 60, myself included and I didn't even have any DC fleets built. A Rag with some MK up vigilantes and maybe a couple Zeals were plenty to get above 60, or pythons, or Heretics. DC brought the extra numbers and people had fleets up to 67.
It is a fact that this gating was done so the people who spent real money don't have grounds to complain. They are the ones that were being catered to. You cannot deny that. Even many coiners thought it was a good idea, and they know that an overpowered ship must either be nerfed or nerf the gating.
The root of the problem.
Gating needs to protect tiers of ships from wiping underpowered fleets. I think the gating should be moved to 70, now that I see fleets in the mid 90s. Bases should be 50+, and maybe higher later, but the development team has forgotten about bases. Yes it was nice getting storm driver and quite a few useless weapons for our bases, but where are Xeno base weapons? Where are Xeno armors for bases? The Basing event is coming, and I have a feeling this is when we can do some work on our bases, but you aren't telling us anything. We would like to know how long we must accept the fact that kixeye wants to allow coiners to run through bases stealing resources from mid level players and wiping mid level player fleets without any regards to their feelings, because their feelings don't have a wallet to back them up.
The future
After Xeno tier 6 has concluded you must allow a time period of a couple months for players to catch up before you introduce the next faction. Maybe even releasing some more tech that will still help us. This game is all about time, and you aren't allowing us time, but making it to where if you don't coin, you will be left in the dust. That is not what players want, especially new ones.