Explanation of the great grand rebalance from Paul Preece, founder of KIXEYE

  • mason.dixen
    Master Tactician
    Joined Oct 2013 Posts: 2,156
    edited 9 Mar 2016, 6:09PM

    I'm going to risk sticking my head above the parapet and say that I appreciate both @CM LXC Paul taking the time to respond with the reasoning behind some of the changes when it would be easier just to hide from the angry mob.

    Although I still have concerns over some of the changes they do make more sense in this context. Certainly enough that I'm willing to see how things pan out first. The point on speed currently being king is spot on and I can see the logic in shifting modifiers off hulls to equipment where trade-offs have to be made as part of the fitting.

    What I'd really be interested in hearing about would any plans to restore some of the variety lost by the planned normalisation. This is especially important for ships like the Destiny that don't fit nicely in the new system due the weapon/armour slots they sacrifice by design for their previous niche (kiting and killing low level fleets).

    Destiny is one of my favorite ships due to its agility.  After the update take effective, The 240 unladen mass ship will lose its purpose and be painful on repairs.  It lacks weight and a special to serve as a tier 2.5 ship.  Ironically my raptures will be 200 unladen mass, which beats out hulls such as the Venom, Exodus, and even the Condor / Nighthawk which makes no to little sense.

    I encourage open dialogue to the questioning of motives, logic and reason.  To shut others down because we disagree is just as bad as using flawed logic and shutting out all other voices.  Those who open themselves up for questioning should be commended.  However, in order to be open for change and real solution you have to first listen to others and consider those feelings first. 

    While some segments of the community could care less, you have to understand the social factors in your community first.

    You don't have a standard player.  While you have player stereotypes such as Carebear, farmer, sector police and pirate.  Everyone has a uniqueness about them.  So when you alienate any segment of that population, think of it as genocide.  While no one misses that population under tyrannical rule.  The failures of the Soviet Union, Communist Markets of China, and North Korea serve as a listen that the population does matter to great extent.  Once you eliminate the most competitive players (those who are strongly against speed normalization) you must account for the fall out.

    I am sorry I have another poll to create.  Thank you for the inspiration. 
    "Forged in the flames of the original 8k wars"
    "Participant in the Jova Crusades; the winning side"
    "I hate cargo fleets.  What else do you want me to say"
    "I attacked you because you stole my piece of cheesecake with cherry toppings."
    "The government has ordered me to harvest this farm.  Please be patient as your base is harvested."
    IGN: MasonD
    ~Condolences to all who share a similar name - there can only be one.
  • Duke of Dukes
    Duke of Dukes
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2013 Posts: 68
    Mavihub said:
    If the rebalance wasn't happening I would be spending 100$ on the corinthian deal tonight. But I won't be and today or atleast this month will probably be my last day/month of playing it unless they stop these speed changes.

    I think it's about as insulting as you can get to have them offer the Corinthian (This is a purchase as a good) for a ship that isn't going to be the best Cruiser in the game in a few weeks.  So they are offering you something of value now, that will bow before the almighty Heretic in a couple of weeks.  I mean they have been doing that, but to do it after this mega **** of an update is a bit of a slap in the face.  Next up will be refit offers for purchase, get 50 ship refits for 100 bucks everybody!  Refit your ships instantly it will only cost you more cash.  Ugh, I bet they will actually have this now that I think about it, I might puke...
  • shtorm2005
    Potential Threat
    Joined Apr 2015 Posts: 48
    CM LXC said:
    You’re dumbing down the game, I like complexity.

    The game is getting more simple with regards to ship speeds, that is true. However there are different kinds of complexity. Speed is a very important stat. So important that it can override nearly all other stats except for Range. When that happens the game actually loses a ton of complexity, as the number of meaningful combat stats drops from many to few. Bringing more consistency to hull speeds should return more complexity than it takes as the number of meaningful stats increases. Over time, we expect more hull classes to become useful to more players.

    How about projectile weapons? with same speed, same class  of ships , they will become obsolete because they have worst damage/weight in the game. Only agility of the fleet made them usefull. If u cant hit and run anymore, projectile weapons will become useless in FvF battles.
  • donglongwang
    Potential Threat
    Joined Jun 2015 Posts: 56

    @CipherZero said:
    Everything described would require to have be a complete new game that's looks just like Vega, but isn't due to stats changes and bogus reasons to have the game come out that way.

    Welp, seems there's nothing we can do to discourage these greedy punks from ending their own game.

    NOW we must do our part by getting refunds and writing horrible reviews on Steam, Google Play and the Apple Store.

    Name it something catchy and have it spread!

    So you are going to throw a tantrum because you don't get what you want? Rather than saying, I don't like this, but let's see if it works or not? That's a great way to encourage someone to make it better, by actually destroying it.

    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Nov 2014 Posts: 504
    Does wrecking the endgame meta make new players want to keep playing?  Nope.

    Why do new players stop playing?  Bullying, Event difficulty, Low BP droprate, hull build time, Pay2Win, and most importantly REPAIR TIME.

    What does this rebalance fix?
    Bullying: No
    Event difficulty: Goes Up not down
    BP Droprate: Makes it harder to farm BP
    Hull build time: N/A
    Pay2Win: Coiners advantage goes up
    Repair Time: Goes up for cruisers, the only useful hull now

    Kixeye, please turn all my ship hulls, mk upgrades, and fittings into coins so I can rebuild my fleets for VC version 2.0.  Any compensation less than this is unacceptable.

  • kuemmelsche271
    Potential Threat
    Joined May 2015 Posts: 26

    Kix, pls Just admit, that you are not able to balance a game complex as Vega (which funny enough you created urself) in the sence that u can make it more enjoyable and also keep ur income stable. Instead of risking ur income but keep at least the player base (which u can refix slowly afterwards) u make the game much more simple. So you dumb down the game and make everything but the free mass unimportant, which leads to making free mass the one and only stat important to evaluate the power of a ship. This makes it increadibly easy for u to modify the game in the directions u want afterwards, but makes it sooo dumb there will not be many players left.

    Did u read ur only Wiki page? KixEye was the first ever company of its kind getting 100.000.000 $ revenue. Which means each player paid in average more than 20 times as much as every other player in similar games was willing to pay (never forget it was free to play all along, they paid without the need to). That's really remarkable. And honestly, u deserved that. The complexity of VC makes it reaonable to pay for the game, since u assume to have fun for several years due to the COMPLEXITY.

    What u are doing here? U loose ur selling point!

    So regarding the changes, I can understand that the speed is a bit too important, but averaging the speed is definietly not the best option. It' the easiest for u. But this will definietly destroy long term playing for the players. But maybe u want more ppl playing the game for a year or so, then move on since it's boring and get new players, since new players might coin more (on average) than olders will do, don't know that.

    Nevertheless, even if u say this is not about the money, it really is. And this sux hard.

    Best regards! 

  • the mastadon
    the mastadon
    Master Tactician
    Joined Sep 2013 Posts: 2,132
    I remember a good joke from Firaxis about game design. After every new game they get a new lead to direct the project, sometimes they ask that Dev to step back up and direct the next in the franchise. And they reply "These were all of my good ideas, what else do you want? All of the bad ones?" Get some new blood into this equation.
  • DeathDealerD
    Potential Threat
    Joined May 2011 Posts: 27

    @CipherZero said:
    Everything described would require to have be a complete new game that's looks just like Vega, but isn't due to stats changes and bogus reasons to have the game come out that way.

    Welp, seems there's nothing we can do to discourage these greedy punks from ending their own game.

    NOW we must do our part by getting refunds and writing horrible reviews on Steam, Google Play and the Apple Store.

    Name it something catchy and have it spread!

    So you are going to throw a tantrum because you don't get what you want? Rather than saying, I don't like this, but let's see if it works or not? That's a great way to encourage someone to make it better, by actually destroying it.

    seems like they need no help destroying any game they already have BP and WC their track record dictates that it wont be him that nails the coffin shut they are doing that all by them selves read the 8 pages  of comments ..
  • heff216
    Potential Threat
    Joined Mar 2016 Posts: 79

    I promise to not sound hateful and disrespect you, but I totally disagree with your logic.  I would be willing and excited for change had I not been faced with event prizes that tested my understanding based on the old metric.  I believe they had events where top prize was between Rag and hurricane.  Knowing what you know now, which choice made more sense if you could not get both?  The last time they put out heretic it was a toss up between that and the Valkyrie? maybe? I can't remember for sure... The point is there were sometimes people couldn't get both, people worked as hard as they could or used their understanding of the old standard when making these decisions.  Who would logically be excited for these changes now when the company had all the data available and still pushed the things they knew were getting lowered?  It difficult to believe these changes are good when they withheld data for the purpose of deception.  Maybe they are just spinning us up for excitement just to change things next time profits get lowered.  You have to thing of these changes not just from your end game player state but what is good for everyone.  Not telling the truth hurts the relationship between consumer and producer.
  • RickGarland
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Aug 2014 Posts: 364

    That mad tv clip is right on for whats going on here lol

  • Saor Campos de Oliveira
    Saor Campos de Oliveira
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Oct 2012 Posts: 101
    I still waitting for a reasonble explanation why this game is going to have all of the thing that make it unique kill off?
  • heff216
    Potential Threat
    Joined Mar 2016 Posts: 79
    The new standard on end game logic is to just grab everything, who knows what the company will change or lower next.  How can a new guy keep up with that?  Maybe easy for end game players but new people trying to catch up can't follow sage wisdom from old players anymore.  I know what should work well, but I don't know if we are playing football today or basketball tomorrow.  The community as a whole breaks down when the rules dramatically change.  I can't lean on the old players and i don't want to put my time in if whatever i get is ruined tomorrow.
  • Ballsy U N I C O R N
    Ballsy U N I C O R N
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Nov 2015 Posts: 495

    Hmmm...They stoned Paul in the Bible right? Hehehe

  • misanthr0pe
    Potential Threat
    Joined May 2015 Posts: 83

    You are kidding, right? This is like an early April fools? There is no WAY that a game developer worth his weight in salt would tell endgamers that they don't matter. You can tell us that we are the "lifeblood" of the game, but at the end of the day, what you said was "Vega was supposed to be for PC, now more money is on mobile, we don't want PC to be usable, switch to Steam." Do you proofread your statements for logical inconsistencies?

    Have you ever been part of a large scale game that did a massive change? There are usually alpha and beta tests, engine overhauls, and player feedback sessions and focus groups...you guys said screw that, let's "rip the bandaid off"?
    Who is going to teach all your prescious noobs?
    Who is going to spark the large scale wars and coinfests when you ostracize your long term players?
    Who will you design your game for after all the old timers leave, and your new generation of half-wit noobs die off due to lack of tech and training?

    What it sounds like to me is you want to turn this into a game of rock, paper, scissors. You tell us that speed differences make the game LESS complex, and that speed outclasses range...why do we not just have one speed across all hulls then? If speed is so detrimental to strategy, then what is the purpose of cutters?
    You can feed us all the lines you want, but when you say the following statements in the same breath, then you are just lying, again:
    "We are not doing it just for the money... More paying players are using mobile, so we are ditching PC players."

  • Eddie1323
    Joined Aug 2014 Posts: 5
    I've been playing for 3 years now and really don't understand any of this **** that's gonna happen no matter how many times I read it. I guess I will wait and see how it turns out. I will tell you though if it sucks I will be leaving the game for good. I am not the biggest coiner but over the years I've put more money in this game than I have my cars...lol. I guess what i am trying to say is... trying to bring in new people is well and good BUT doing it at the cost of your long time loyal players will probably be counterproductive. Hope everything turns out well cause I well be sorry to leave a game that i've put so much time, effort, and money into. Hoping for the best......FURY
  • Gaius Octavian
    Gaius Octavian
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Mar 2015 Posts: 284

    He knows better than you idiots do. You are to stupid to not understand why he wants to make this game equal to battle pirates(lol). Since you are so beneath their great understanding of things its very hard for them to use words and ideas you can understand. If you weren't so pathetic you would see the brilliance of their new ability to purge older PC players to give these new potential mobile users a chance to coin.

  • plato arcad
    plato arcad
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2015 Posts: 54

    For me anyway, I can be content with your explanation. I'll continue to play, see how things work out. I'm sceptical though. My coin purchases will reflect that. Do the right thing guys.

  • Andrew Sheen
    Andrew Sheen
    Joined Feb 2016 Posts: 8
    This is fun to watch. I have played many games. I have seen many changes in those games. There is always a thread about this game will end after this change, or, this game is bad enough but after this I am quitting. Good luck, etc, etc, etc. People please. The people that create these games know more than you give them credit for, I am not saying that they get it right every time. I am not saying the changes are gonna be great. I am saying that they don't sit in a dark cubicle and dream up ways to mess the game up. They test, discuss and sometimes debate on what the outcome will be. They make a decision to change things and live with the fallout. But usually you see small changes to the gameplay and find that you can deal with them. Numbers look bad. How it plays is what matters. Relax and give it a shot.
  • sofyanex
    Joined Dec 2013 Posts: 1
    So, are you guys, f*cking kinding me, right? Because, I've never purchased money into my account, because I've never saw a good reason for. OK, now I know that I've done it correctly, why? Because this game is going down, it seems the **** farmville on the space and if I had purchased money, I had lost it, just as simple as this. Kix,  @CM LXC  tell me would you continue with this? Because I know for sure that most of the oldplayers and worthable ones are going to leave this, if your objective is to make the new players coins and get more money, let me tell you something, you are going to loose more money that he one you are going to earn. I dislike mk upgrades, I din't know for sure why, but now? Now I know it they were the signal of VC' death... I'm end with this, I'll still play few times just for not to throw to the bin my effort during the months and stolen sleep hours.......... 
  • E.T.1837
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2014 Posts: 42
    CM LXC said:

    What is the point of this change?

    To you, the long time players, the game feels good as it is. It doesn’t feel broken or badly out of shape. You like playing the game - if you didn’t you wouldn’t have continued playing it month after month. And yet here am I saying it needs fixing. Well... we’re both right. As it turns out, you guys (and gals) are pretty unique. Out of the millions of people who have played VC, it really connected with a small, select subgroup of those people (you) who really enjoyed playing VC day after day, month after month. The majority of people didn’t find what they were looking for in VC and simply stopped playing. For those people, VC failed. It failed to be fun. It failed to be engaging day after day.

    And there lies the catch-22. Some of the aspects of the game that appeal to the current player base are the exact same aspects that frustrate or overload new players. To improve the experience for new players, and to grow VC, we have to alter the game to make it more attractive to new players. Sometimes, after considering all other options, this includes altering the game in a way that frustrates the current player base.

    We do not want you thinking that you are not important to us. Long time players are the lifeblood of the game. In many ways you are the game. However for VC to grow and entertain a new generation of players it must change and adapt. Ultimately we feel the result is worth the effort.

    Paul Preece

    Founder, KIXEYE

    You’re only doing this for the money:

    This specific set of changes will most likely lose us money in the short term. We know we’ve lost the confidence of players by moving the goalposts and it will take time to rebuild it. None of the changes are designed to make money, they are designed to improve the accessibility of the game by better defining the meta.

    LXC: Ok, this was Scarlett. Credit where it's due.

    Based on currently available information, it appears that several fleet repair times will actually be going up (https://www.kixeye.com/forum/discussion/617254). Is there something we’re missing?

    The hull repair change will significantly shift the meta of ship design towards lower armor, high damage ships. As it does ship repair times will fall. We are planning on providing some assistance to players to help them adjust their equipment to the new meta.

    In the examples linked to above many of the ships have traded weaponry for armor and shields, which is the current meta. Those ships should now downgrade their shields and armor and take more weapons. As they do their repair times will drop. We will be monitoring builds to make sure this happens.

    Note, the ISC / Cruiser Armor bonus is ‘repair free’. An ISC ship with a 30% Armor bonus is not charged repair for the additional armor points.

    Paul is currently asleep, (and I'll be off shortly), but please leave your comments and questions below, and either he or I will get to them when we can. We read everything, so don't just link your previous forum thread. Remember that this is my bosses bosses boss, so keep it on topic and constructive. 
    OK so the auto-harvest-fleet insta-repair being obsolete is FOR the new player, right?

    Because we all know that they where really helpful when we where low and med level... I remember my first event, got the ship whit 4 of those insta-rep fleet, took like 20 hrs in total at lest! and no coin BTW! I star coining after I get lvl 35-37.

    I hate wen people talk to you like your stupide enough to believe them. The only new player who will not be upset by growing this way will be the coiner.
  • Delta Fleet
    Delta Fleet
    Potential Threat
    Joined Oct 2015 Posts: 28

    Taking away diversity takes skill out of the equation. If everything's going to be the same then why even bother with different ship classes? Dread and zeal are now the exact same thing as a fury so why bother getting or even building them? Apocrypha and Corinthian creatures are exactly the same as revelation cruisers so why even bother getting or building them? Komodo is now exactly the same as the tipen, so why bother getting and building it?
    Since thease upper tier hulls have been rendered useless, why even bother with them? This update makes them completely pointless. You might as well just delete them all!! Now all the time and money and I've spent grinding to get these hulls was a huge waste not to mention all the Mark upgrades for them! I know carriers have been made absolutely worthless as well. With them being so much slower than everything they're sitting ducks.
    You say that you want diversity but this is doing just the opposite. Making everything the same is the opposite of making things more diverse. Since you're clearly going the opposite direction of diversifying why don't you just go ahead and delete the ship classes while you're at it turn everything into rev cruisers. The game would be balance then but incredibly boring and pointless to play. Things have to be a little out of balance in order to make the game worth playing.
    Long time players are always going to have an event it's over noobs. If they didn't, it's because they're not progressing through the game, if you don't progress then there's no point in playing the game.
    I hope you realize that this is constructive criticism.

  • Delta Fleet
    Delta Fleet
    Potential Threat
    Joined Oct 2015 Posts: 28

    Have more then a few typos because I was using talk to text

  • SkyNet_600
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Apr 2013 Posts: 654
    i short i read...goodbye old players we loved your money ..and welcome new players ...not new info just kixeye way ..
    i will adapt, refit and no fun be gone fast ...
  • gundamcp8888
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Jul 2015 Posts: 417

    Crap is still crap no matter how you sugar coated it. This is communist socialist vega now. There is no variety means no efficiency. Everybody back to driving yugos.... no more ferraris, lambo, amg, m powered...

  • Francisco Kocchiu Datto
    Francisco Kocchiu Datto
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Dec 2015 Posts: 102

    if you want more people playing the game, start making good videos about the game, stories lines with characters and all, you just need ships and voices for that... anyway, its hard for me to teach my friends how to play and what they can do if they're no video from you to seduce them.

    I am ok with all the changes except for the mass reduce... just dont, you increase whatever you want but reducing will force so many players to change their current ships.

    Just think about it for a second, if you increase the mass instead of reducing it, people will start using more coins to get their ships better and none will complain about even if dreds have less mass than other ships. That way most people wont complain because you didnt nerf their ships, you just make some others a little bit better.

  • Frankv
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2014 Posts: 906

    So basicly my ford fiesta Will go as Fast as a porsche or ferrari.. Real Nice if This happened in real life...

    The real concept from the eagle is gone. It wasn't the fastest ship, not even with strafe 5... And now its just dead... As are some other hulls like the rapture... (which was a pain to obtain anyway!

    I understand the rebalance and the purpuse to get back the other ship classes then carriers cutters and dreads, but a simple adjustment in their speed was enough! Not flatten them all out like they are the same..

    But This is a game that many players spend their cash in. And now the invested money is somewhat lost.

    And we won't get free refits. Well... An over massed ship Will. But since many hulls get mass increase i don't See This happen. Only most battleships Will get it. But not my under massed venoms or exos... Hell even my revs won't get a refit after calculations...

    ^^well not every car needs a turbo, my revs and venoms just got the racing tiers equiped and not all fancy stuff ^^

    So I feel pretty banged in the **** by casheye... Uhh kixeye...

    Where are my free refits?
    Where are my hull speeds? At least have some differences in them!

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