25% increase in operation payout ..or.. why I am loosing the will to play
In a nutshell, Kixeye has hit the wall of diminishing incremental benefit for time spent playing the game (...and this has been the case for some time).
When you look at the time needed to play the game to obtain units... and combine that with the time needed to obtain resources and wait for units to build, you see what is pretty much no longer a game but a full time job in order to maintain a level of competitiveness that keeps up with not only the reported cheaters that play but also the complexity of the game.... and, you can forget including ANY player versus player time spent in a the game.
Complexity of the game is a double edged sword... the more complex the game makes the game challenging but also makes the game frustrating and a black hole of effort. It makes players feel like a hamster in a cage running but gaining no ground.
The focus of the game is obviously (and has been) dedicated to creating more and more revenue through unit generation and operations rather than through play and learning the complexity of the game. As a result, frustration is the new symptom of players who find the amount of time commitment to be to challenging to the point of diminishing return. Therefore, interest in the game becomes less and not more along with revenue and growth. The feeling of getting "left behind" in upgrades becomes the dominate factor rather than willingness to obtain the upgrades.
It would be nice if Kixeye would allow more reasonable time between operations where that players could learn HOW TO USE the units at hand... rather than increase the number of units and upgrades.
This is more than the operations being "too difficult" or taking far too much time to play.. it is about the basic direction that Kixeye has chosen as it business model to generate income. It is an obvious focus on revenue (i.e., the "books") of the game rather than the gaming environment. Very similar to a business raising prices without any concern for the very infrastructure that makes it a viable business. It would be like opening a store and raising the prices because you are selling less and less instead of looking at the store's structure and the shopping inventory itself. The shopping environment is as important as the revenue generated. And, that is why cheating has such a exponentially increasing significant negative impact on the gaming environment. As well as, the fact that Kixeye has never extended the time to play the operations to match the increased degree of difficulty. A business can not just keep increasing prices (time) without regard to the gaming environment in which the revenue is generated.
If Kixeye wants to maintain it's side show carnival game type business model... it needs to evaluate not only how the revenue is generated but how it plans to maintain FUTURE revenue if the game is weighted in favor of short term revenue generation rather than long term planning for future player generation. Unfortunately, I feel that Kixeye places too little concentration of effort into the longer term implications of putting unreasonable time limits on unit upgrades, production or obtaining. Instead, it seems to prefer running head on into a game with diminishing return and the perception of fraud-like expectations from it's players.
Without consideration of the gaming environment (rather than just revenue)... the "will to play" any game takes on more emphasis.
When you look at the time needed to play the game to obtain units... and combine that with the time needed to obtain resources and wait for units to build, you see what is pretty much no longer a game but a full time job in order to maintain a level of competitiveness that keeps up with not only the reported cheaters that play but also the complexity of the game.... and, you can forget including ANY player versus player time spent in a the game.
Complexity of the game is a double edged sword... the more complex the game makes the game challenging but also makes the game frustrating and a black hole of effort. It makes players feel like a hamster in a cage running but gaining no ground.
The focus of the game is obviously (and has been) dedicated to creating more and more revenue through unit generation and operations rather than through play and learning the complexity of the game. As a result, frustration is the new symptom of players who find the amount of time commitment to be to challenging to the point of diminishing return. Therefore, interest in the game becomes less and not more along with revenue and growth. The feeling of getting "left behind" in upgrades becomes the dominate factor rather than willingness to obtain the upgrades.
It would be nice if Kixeye would allow more reasonable time between operations where that players could learn HOW TO USE the units at hand... rather than increase the number of units and upgrades.
This is more than the operations being "too difficult" or taking far too much time to play.. it is about the basic direction that Kixeye has chosen as it business model to generate income. It is an obvious focus on revenue (i.e., the "books") of the game rather than the gaming environment. Very similar to a business raising prices without any concern for the very infrastructure that makes it a viable business. It would be like opening a store and raising the prices because you are selling less and less instead of looking at the store's structure and the shopping inventory itself. The shopping environment is as important as the revenue generated. And, that is why cheating has such a exponentially increasing significant negative impact on the gaming environment. As well as, the fact that Kixeye has never extended the time to play the operations to match the increased degree of difficulty. A business can not just keep increasing prices (time) without regard to the gaming environment in which the revenue is generated.
If Kixeye wants to maintain it's side show carnival game type business model... it needs to evaluate not only how the revenue is generated but how it plans to maintain FUTURE revenue if the game is weighted in favor of short term revenue generation rather than long term planning for future player generation. Unfortunately, I feel that Kixeye places too little concentration of effort into the longer term implications of putting unreasonable time limits on unit upgrades, production or obtaining. Instead, it seems to prefer running head on into a game with diminishing return and the perception of fraud-like expectations from it's players.
Without consideration of the gaming environment (rather than just revenue)... the "will to play" any game takes on more emphasis.
38
I watched BV today, Round Table, where DataKing said he got brother Jerimiah, and coined it up. USD$170, I found this disgusting, not that he coined it, but that he actually said it on a forum, where most where still kicking their heels over playing the event.
I have zero respect for DataKing from this day on. Your comments, would be bone jarring to a company in trouble. They obviously are fine. Because they have people like data that make it a paly to win game.
We're taking serious looks at a lot of this stuff. We want there to be more consistent ways to learn and progress, so that when you hit the event it's not such a brick wall.
Note that there are a lot of players who absolutely destroy the event bases with absolute ease. These players are playing the same event as people who cannot do that yet... so we have a big balance issue. We're going to try to be making it so that the event isn't so do or die, and that throughout the month you can (at your own pace) work towards some more content. (ex: more Operators in the Gear Store, etc.)
Support Form
Rules
If I don't reply to your PM, don't take it personally. We get far too many to keep track of.
The people "walking through the event bases" are opening them up with their cheat accounts - there was even video posted the other day. Stop wasting time, turn off the cheats, & then get back to us about how great everyone is doing in the events.
The "balance" is laughable - if you wanted everything balanced you wouldn't allow anyone to use coins to get ahead (upgrades, repairs, etc). If you are really hurting that bad for money then you should switch to a subscription based game or find a new business venture while leaving the existing stuff alone.
We've said it before, we want a simple & fun game with reasonable repair/upgrades times, reasonable upgrade costs, & a perceived "payoff" for completing a task.
We are tired of upgrading units so that Kixeye can nerf them a month later - all you're doing it is wasting our time & pissing us off.
We reject all the new gimmicks put into the game to create roadblocks & try to force people into coining to survive.
The beauty of this game used to be that you could play this game with one hand while holding a beer in the other, nobody wants to have to find half a dozen buttons on the keyboard - if they did then they would just be playing games on a PS4.
It's disgusting that Kixeye refuses to give us what we want (in most cases doing the exact opposite of what the customer asks for) & they continue to test all these "great new ideas" on the live server which does nothing more than piss off the majority of the players.
We want our old game back & we're tired of Kixeye trying to cater to returning banned players with their noob accounts.
Thank you for commenting on this, I posted what I consider a fairly decent post on Friday and asked for someone from Kixeye or moderator to comment on. Yet no one did so I wonder what the selection criteria for getting feedback is. I asked for videos/explanations from Kixeye as to how they would do the event bases and what they consider reasonable losses but as usual no reply. The question I didn't ask which and should have is what do they consider for instance to get Brother Jerimiah would be a reasonable amount of time. To do level B for instance with the original scoring system you would have had to complete it 15 times? (Probably somewhere between 15-30 hours of game play)
As to your comments
"Note that there are a lot of players who absolutely destroy the event bases with absolute ease. These players are playing the same event as people who cannot do that yet... so we have a big balance issue. We're going to try to be making it so that the event isn't so do or die, and that throughout the month you can (at your own pace) work towards some more content. (ex: more Operators in the Gear Store, etc.)"
I think the only players who can do this with absolute ease are players who can deploy 9 Archangels in one go or those with very deep pockets.
I do appreciate your comments about diluting the impact of missing an event. Perhaps also making events every 6 weeks as well. The comments from Joe ring very true around players hardly getting time to grow comfortable with units before they are obsolete.
The other terrible thing with this event was the problem with damage to existing Special Forces which occurred the day before event. I contacted Kixeye and was told it is being looked into but I spent 4 weeks getting my troops upgraded for the event and to have that effectively nullified the day before event was very very poor.
One last observation the gap between low and high levels is growing. Begging is rife on chat because lower levels want all the new toys but they see the easiest way to do this is begging so the don't learn to play the game. Kixeye recently has moved away from speedy Thorium based upgrades to longer time based, lower levels have no chance of catching up, the inference is that Kixeye are doing this to make them pay. It also encourages people to both cheat and take help from cheats.
I call Shenanigans. The only players who do this event easily, are the ones who shouldn't be playing the game at all. You know what we all mean.
Lest I get banned for saying the forbidden word.
Limiting offers for units and period of times to get the units is making the more unbalanced... not less. If Kixeye thinks this makes players want to get them more... you are wrong. It only adds more frustration to the game... nothing more.
YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK about making operations less about "do or die"... but, you have to extend that to upgrade options as well... AND, actually implement availability of ALL units on a continuous bases... (or at least on a reasonable continuous basis). In fact, the profit model for future revenue depends upon it.
Balance is important... but, where the balance has got out of whack is time needed to spend playing a game that is suppose to be fun and not a job.
I am (or use to be until recently) one of those players who took on operations with no problem... but, now the issue is more about why the willingness to play has diminished. It is called - burnout.... and, burnout is the curse of ANY business that depends upon the 20% that provides 80% of the revenue. Burnout (IMHO) for WC is caused by the inability to KEEP UP the upgrades that come WITH the (now) excessive amount of number of new units combined with far too many upgrade/workshop options.
In essence... kixeye is incrementally pricing itself out the market in units of TIME and EFFORT.... not just dollars. Your running off your 20% income producing player by way of new "this and that" offering attrition on a far too frequent bases. Even a restaurant knows there is a limit as to how many items can be on the menu before you actually hurt your business.
You have a business model that exchanges time for money... but, if the time required is exceeding the value perceived by the player OR exceeds the willingness to make the time (i.e., willingness)... the model breaks down - fast. And, instead of the time for money exchange becoming a trade off by players... it becomes a loss proposition on both sides of time and money... at an incrementally faster rate since time and money are elements. of profits. In short, time work against the model since players quite spending the time to play.
In general, Kixeye's has a revenue model that is relatively new and when balance (on ANY level) of the products being offered is offset... the time vs. money exchange becomes exponentially problematic in both present and future values of income.
Kixeye needs to review and implement the KISS concept - BADLY.
But you see Chris? This last line of yours is where I have issue. I don't like the whole SF concept. It's becoming SF Commander. I believe it was AA who mentioned that you should have just made a new game out of the SF units. Too much goes into making them work: You need a lead for a group to work; the leads give different kinds of buffs; workshopping them changes their entire behavior and purpose; some take up more space in a plat then others, they are unique, so each unit must be earned . It's enough to make your head spin.
Up until now, you get a unit, level them up, put a few in a plat, workshop them, them play around with it. If you like it, you go ahead and build more. A very simple concept. Now that you've made some SF immune to the Banshees, you've again changed the dynamics; You can't do much without SF units at this point; but now you need specific SF units. All of your other units are becoming obsolete now. It's all about building plats of SF units.
You don't see how this past 3 months has completely changed the game? You tried to hype us up about this change, but this was pretty major. Did you consider that maybe we didn't want the game to change on such a fundamental level?
Forgive me for being brief to save time, but I'll tell you guys this:
- This is an extremely rational, clear, well thought out thread, and I appreciate that. This is the kind of feedback that we can actually rely on, so good job and keep this kind of stuff coming
- About the new units and their complexity, understood. I think there is some truth to this, but I think it's more about the speed at which this complexity has been introduced, and how there aren't exactly smooth paths for everyone.
- About value vs. time/energy/money, absolutely understood
- As for cheaters being the only ones who are winning easily-- this is not true. Not true at all. There are definitely cheaters winning easily, but it's not everyone... and as I said, cheating is very near a serious solution.
I understand your side, and we'll keep working on these problems. The bottom line is I can't win you over with a post, all that I can say is we're aware of theses sentiments and will legitimately trying to address them as soon as possible.Support Form
Rules
If I don't reply to your PM, don't take it personally. We get far too many to keep track of.
What Kixeye seems to be attempting to do is transition from a transaction type model to a fee based model but in a VERY unusual fashion BECAUSE you have a business model that is dependent upon "pay to play" income base. In other words, you are monetizing the game so that revenue driven based on transaction (or better to say playing time) in exchange for fee based based on monthly operations. In effect, the operations are a replacement for a monthly fee.
Not a bad idea - ON PAPER. But, here is the gap in that idea.
There is a disconnect between transaction/pay to play and fee/operations events based models because you have different level of players who can capitalize at different rates. Therefore, some players pay more and others will pay less because of skill.. but, also because of willingness to play. The better players will contribute less income to the bottom line since they take less losses BUT the players who contribute more to the bottom line have to play MORE and pay MORE. And, it is that "paying" group who will hit the incremental wall of time vs. effort losses first. As a result, this makes lower levels or "burnout" more likely as you try and make the game more challenging. BUT... the additional challenge effects the lower tiered players at a disproportional rate and impact.
In effect, IF Kixeye wants to transition from a transaction/pay as you play to a fee/operational format... Kixeye MUST take into consideration volume of players. In a transactional model...you need a high volume of players (like the game originally had) while a fee based model can have less. BUT... ONE THING FOR CERTAIN... if Kixeye decides to make this transition... you must accept that it will result in loss of revenue. When any business goes from a transactional based income to fee base... the volume of players drops. But... in the long run Kixeye will see more stable flow of income from fee based.
As best I can tell, Kixeye is attempting to generate fee based revenue (called monthly operations) WHILE ALSO trying to keep transaction based revenue (pay to play). And... that is going to result in imbalance as to how it effects different players based on different level of skills and/or willingness to play. But, mostly it is resulting in burnout, frustration among players and the complaints about how lower levels (new players) are giving advantages that older players did not have.
No matter which model is used or combination... a balanced gaming environment is necessity no matter the business tact is taken. And... balance is lacking on so many levels because there are currently SO MANY MOVING PARTS.
Want to make the game better... make it a game not a job... which is NO easy task when the people making the decisions are trying to make a living (i.e., make more and more money)... while the players are trying to achieve more with less (i.e. make more with less money and effort).
Here's how I think we make you guys happy:
- Less "do or die" events
- Smooth progression ramp. There should always be ways to start working towards progress. You should never be hard "blocked" behind some difficulty you can't possibly beat.
- Fix cheating once and for all
- More social gameplay, more PvP gameplay, more focus on the fun. Things like better leaderboards, Alliance based features, fun stuff on the map. Fun, not punishing!
Is any of this off-base? What key element is missing? (notice 1 and 2 are very broad and will account for a lot of the difficulty and content overload problems players talk about)
Support Form
Rules
If I don't reply to your PM, don't take it personally. We get far too many to keep track of.
Never let the game become offensively dominate or defensively dominate. When I see the term "social game play"... I fear it will become to offensively dominated and makes having a good defensive base a waste of time and effort. On the other hand, if you mean adding the ability for more time for PVP, then that makes sense and is a admirable goal to have if done in a balanced fashion. It is best that "social play" doesn't mean ALL offense.
PVP has come to a stall because players simply can not do both - pay for operations and pay to play in PVP type game. Your idea of not making Operations a "do or die" is a good one... BUT... it has not been implemented in that fashion (contrary to what is believed). Until you make the upgrades and/or new units available with or without operations participation... you have a "do or die" situation with regard to operations.
Adding challenge to the game could easily be generated by the players themselves if given the chance in a balanced and fair playing environment. But, I think having Kixeye challenge bases will always be needed in order to educate the players on what CAN be accomplished. The players just have to be given the time and opportunity to achieve this goal.
Certain Kixeye challenge bases should be looked at as a learning opportunity not just a revenue opportunity.
There are so many things Kixeye could do that would make the game faster... but, they concentrate resources on making operations, new units and more bugs (as a result). For example, having the ability to make and store different base setups that can be established with a click or keystroke. Locating specific type of rogue bases without having to scan over the sector looking for them would help in making a good playing environment. Also, making a "test area/range" would be nice... it will help a player learn more and faster about how to play the game and how each unit works.
BTW... none of these are new... they have been asked in the past... as far back as 5 yrs. ago if my memory is correct.
At this point... kixeye needs to go from a game to play... to a game to learn HOW to play. It's own complication and challenge has created new problems that need new solutions.... NOT more units/problems.
Currently in 254 141 is my original home The lag has improved so i am back lol
Do you want a friendly bubble? I can lvl you and say ty for Res thats as friendly as i can get!!
1. Slow down on events
2. Slow down on base upgrades
3. Slow down on resource requirements for upgrades
4. Reduce the price of gold to continue generating revenue, keep the players playing and reduce hacking
I can keep going and going and going with a long list of issues that were brought up before over and over by players that were never taken into consideration.
IT'S TOO LATE. Game has way too many hackers. Most coiners left. Non coiners got tired of upgrades and left and we are left with??? Yes, read the forums. Daily you see nothing but upset players with glitch issues, hacker issues and boring event complaints. Good luck with whatever it is your doing since it appears that that is all you will be doing. I don't believe you take any input from players since you never have and probably will never do. With that said, roll the movie, get the popcorn and enjoy the show as this continues its path into an action packed ship wreck...
You have a lot of people that like this game so maybe you could also draw a few ideas from them?
Hopefully, it will be fun game experience once again.
"FAKE POST - PRETEND ONLY"
TO ALL OUR KIXEYE COMMUNITY ON BEHALF OF ALL MODERATORS AND KIXEYE. AFTER REVIEWING YOUR REQUESTS AND ATTEMPTS TO BETTER THIS GAME. WE ARE HAPPY TO ANNOUNCE THAT THE FOLLOWING CHANGES WILL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.
1. EVENTS EVERY OTHER MONTH
2. REPAIR TIMES GREATLY REDUCED
3. PLATOON AND AIR CAPACITY HAVE BEEN INCREASED TO ATTACK
4. GOLD PRICES HAVE BEN REDUCED 105 GOLD FOR 5$ AND SO ON
5. SEGREGATION OF NEW ACCOUNTS TO WEED OUT HACKERS
6. BASE UPGRADES HAVE BEEN HALTED AND IF MORE TO COME, WILL BE PULLED FROM THE FAN CREATION REQUEST LIST
7. RELOCATING TIMERS REDUCED
We realized that this is a free game however, it does cost money if you want continuous play. So therefore will work with those players that wish to coin in making it more affordable and fun.
Why do people want to hit bases for 3-4 days repair?
I lost all respect for this gaming company few days ago for the blatant lying and what not. I will never trust this company ever again.
Your balance issue isn't the players fault, it's the fault of piss-poor cheater management.
Although if you really were seriously about fixing the balance issue a start would be going back to 5 tiers of difficulty with the super hard tier at the top for all of those players to go steam rolling constantly while letting the truly legit players of this game find a tier they're comfortable with.
The last event had A, B and C tiers that worked out at around tiers 5, 3 and 1 respectively. This event the A, B and C tiers equated to tiers 5, 4 and 1 in terms of difficulty respectively. This is where most of the complaints have stemmed from and throwing out extra XP does absolutely nothing to fix the underlying problem with the targets.
Bring tier B back down to a true mid level of difficulty and you're part of the way there to fixing the problem this event had and getting back to the last event that didn't have difficulty issues.
And if the "super players" go breezing through those Tier B bases easily that's just too **** bad - mid level content is not meant to be tuned to be challenging to top level players, if they want to come down to Tier B for less damage but more chair time that's their prerogative and a part of the game.
I don't mind the events every month. In fact, I'd like to see all the operations, the 30's & 60's, the Events, the SO events, the 50's....all of this stuff the game offers available at ALL times.
Not just a week a month for the event, not just 30's and 60's 3 days a week. Not just 50's a couple times a week.......
No reason to not have all of them all the time so players can play when THEY have time and not on Kixeye's time.
Keep doing an event a month. Fine.....make it a month long event.
Lower the repair times by about 50%....probably the sweet spot there. base gold for repair on time, not unit like it is now...some units costing 20 gold for 5 hours repair and others costing 40 gold....etc....that needs to disappear NOW.
Eliminate the cheating.
Put decent amounts of resources in the event bases and make them challenging to players but not a coin fest. And example of pure stupidity I seen in this event is after clearing out the forces in a 90, I sent my titan in for clean up. A lvl 16 titan with 10 drones, damage reduction, and increased damage as damage is taken took 50% damage from last standers in that base.....absolute stupidity there and not realistic at all. Hovers would have taken less damage than the titan did and that is BS.
Get rid of the limited tech crap.
One of the big things your gonna have to work on is the time invested thing. Its not worth 30 hours to get BJ in this event over a few days. Nor is it feasable for the majority of players who might want him.....god knows why we really don't know much about the unit as we know it will be nothing compared to our version.
Balance is key. Super damage from ERM is not reasonable. Your units should do the same damage as ours. Your bases should be no more powerful that the most powerful of any player and that is only the top base in the event.
I have about 400k xp in this event.....had 3 mllion last month. Played more and coined more during that event even though I really didn't care for the warhorse and after using it care even less about it.
This month, I've playerd around with some bases, generally have 24 hours repair after each 30 minute gaming session, and have little or no interest in the event and frankly the game. It is taking TOO MUCH TIME and EFFORT to get anything now.
Like many others have said and I've been saying for months. I already have 2 jobs....I don't need another one. And that is what war commander has become....a job.
Need more storage space too. Older units need to have a purpose too. For every unit you intorduce we need at least 1500 storage so we can store a plat of them. Its way time to at another 10 lvls to the storage building with about 5k storage for each lvl
Go back to the thorium based 5 second upgrades and DO NOT increase thorium difficulty. By lvl 35, anyone who has invested the time to learn how others are doing giants should be able to do their own giants without major damage. If they can't then maybe they need to find another game to play. harsh maybe but its the truth.
I just finished a 21 day upgrade on a building today. INSANE. No unit or building should take this long. Upgrade times need to be shortened by as much as 90% in some cases, about 50% on all.
I have units right now that would take a year to upgrade. INSANE. Perhaps change the upgrading system where we can upgrade all units at the same time. Or maybe 5 air, 5 ground, and 5 infantry units at the same time depending on levels of buildings. Perhaps take the research buildings to lvl 15 and add an addtional upgrade que for each level. I honestly would not mind if it took 5-10 days per level on these buildings because the time would be worth it. Also, Upgrade timers should not stop while the building is upgrading.....people work around construction all the time in the real world...it would not be inreasonable for it to happen in war commander.
About that big huge control panel at the bottom middle of the screen......it needs to go bye bye. Its a hinderance to my view and the side area where it was origiginally was just fine. Add another line of boxes for the customs for SF if you need to and set up key assignments.....let me customize the key assignments so that it is comfortable for me. You never know who is behond the keyboard playing.....I know personally of a couple players who because of disabilities cannot reach keys all over the board quickly and would benefit from being able to assign things to mouse buttons and particular keys at will without having to resort to macros and such.
That is all I have for now. Since it seems that people in Kixeye are reading this I will close for now and think on some of the others stuff I have fogotten at the moment that I had come up with that would improve my war commander experience.
the event is overpowered, ok why not move back to the way it was in waves. That way each player can progress at his or her own pace like most of us had to when we first started? If not you have to seriously look at the amount of power you are placing in the bases which we attack. The defensive portions of this event is way easier than the last one and is about right for the xp, but the event bases are crazy, at least give us a chance to earn better spec ops we can use in the event and not the gat trucks to defend the base ....that cant get close enough to actually shoot!!!!
two events ago i had my best ever i thought kixeye had cracked it, but the last one dropped back to the ridiculous and this is just a slap in the face of the games loyal players.
Cheaters/hackers, i will wait and see the result of the moves to prevent these guys dominating the forum topics, mine included.
all the new toys coming out with every event, well im pretty sure we are all in the same boat when it comes to space to store these units, i am sacrificing units i still use from time to time for things i need for this event, and the units i am having to get rid of are shopped using thor which will cost me more thor when i build them again after event........
to be honest i dont care on the gold issue i will not pay for a free game.....maybe thats why i never get listened to lol