Retrofitting is a joke.

Vince Martinez
Vince Martinez
Potential Threat
Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 88

I just finished the retrofit for the lightweight armor. it claims to give +3% evade bonus. prior to the upgrade the value on my evade armor was 7.5% evade now after the retrofit it says 7.7% evade. So i used 50,000 in uranium  which takes weeks to get unless your insanely coining repairs on fleets at $3 to $5 a pop, for 2 tenths of a percent? Your greed is ruining the game with the excessively long repair times and build times now this?  

  • Mr. Blizzard
    Mr. Blizzard
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Jun 2012 Posts: 3,176

    it's 3% of 7.5%......kixeye math.




  • SunGod1
    SunGod1
    Master Tactician
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 2,103

    Most of us are well aware of the cost/benefit ratios on almost all aspects of the the game are way out of line..  If you expected a reward for your hard work and coin you are in the wrong place.  

    "The contents of this post are working as intended."
  • Lord Mafia
    Lord Mafia
    Greenhorn
    Joined Mar 2014 Posts: 18

    it's actual 3% of the 7% not 7%+3% it dont stack like that


  • DataOutlaw
    DataOutlaw
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 724

    Seriously? Another thread complaining about the same percentage increase math which Kixeye uses on all percentage increases? This is not Kixeye math, it is basic pre-algebra math. Nothing was falsely advertised about this increase. A retrofit of an armor panel provides a percentage increase on the panel, not the hull it is attached to, so you got a 3% increase of the 7% evasion modifier on the armor. 

    Also, compare this to any other component retrofit. For example, you coudl have spent your 50,000 uranium to retrofit counter measure systems for a 3% range increase which would have given the base 28 range of the Hailstorm increase from 50% (42 range) to 51.5 (42.4). If you got an extra 3% evade on the D4E panel and put 4 of them on a ship that would have given you an extra 12% evasion. That would have been waaaay out of line with any other 50,000 uranium component retrofit. 

  • SunGod1
    SunGod1
    Master Tactician
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 2,103

    That is why .. smart players kick **** 

    "The contents of this post are working as intended."
  • purcellwd
    purcellwd
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 481

    Yes retrofitting weapons is a joke, ya just figure that out hahahahah :)


  • XxCAMZxX
    XxCAMZxX
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Jan 2012 Posts: 809

    why would you retro them when you know all forsaken and most of draconian weapon are nerfed..it is ridiculous :neutral_face: 

  • WeThePeople
    WeThePeople
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 1,507

    Well some things are good to retro but u have to do your math and read as well and know what your getting b4 u click OK


    WeThePeople [FKU]...Wow i'm still playing this game,






     
  • Alphadog_LOD
    Alphadog_LOD
    Potential Threat
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 98

    come on guys use some common sense.  You take the evade armor at 7% and add 12-15% for R5 each plate would be about 20% so 5 on a triton or hell strike and you have 100% evade.  That would be game over right there.  I agree the cost is insane to do these upgrades for the minimal returns but by the end the 7% is 8% or so which on a fleet can be fairly noticeable adding on 4-5 even 6% evade to a fleet that you wouldn't have gotten before the refit became available.

  • WeThePeople
    WeThePeople
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 1,507

    But a minimal return might be all thats needed in some battles to go from a loss to a win as well. 


    WeThePeople [FKU]...Wow i'm still playing this game,






     
  • DataOutlaw
    DataOutlaw
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 724

    LokeTT said:

    The math kixeye is using is wrong really.


    Next time you get an increase in salery, ask your boss to get it the way kixeye do math, and i bet you won't defend them much longer.


    Well the same math applies. If you work for an hourly wage and your boss gives you a $0.10/ hour raise then you know it will add up to $0.10 an hour for 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, and it ends up being $208 per year raise. That $0.10 raise is additive.  If you are on a yearly salary and you boss gives you a 3% raise then how do you calculate it? Your base salary is $100,000 and you get 3% more so $3,000 more per yer for a total salary of $103,000. Then nexy year you get another 3% raise will it be $106,000 becasue a 3% raise is somehow magically always $3,000? No... next year you get a 3% increase over $103,000 so it ends up being  $106,090. Two 3% raises are not the same as a 6% raise. 


    This is how percentage increases are calculated in math. Period. The description of the retrofit said it applied a 3% increase to the armor panel, not a 3% increase to the hull you stick it on. You are retrofitting the component, not the hull...

  • Nelson Nunes
    Nelson Nunes
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Jul 2011 Posts: 820

    I just finished the retrofit for the lightweight armor. it claims to give +3% evade bonus. prior to the upgrade the value on my evade armor was 7.5% evade now after the retrofit it says 7.7% evade. So i used 50,000 in uranium  which takes weeks to get unless your insanely coining repairs on fleets at $3 to $5 a pop, for 2 tenths of a percent? Your greed is ruining the game with the excessively long repair times and build times now this?  

    really? is it that hard to get 50 000 uranium? firstly you get 10 000 uranium almost for free in FM... second you can get over 10k uranium per 75 dredge fleet. i do a 75 dredge in 2 runs with d92u BATTLESHIPS getting only 50% dmged on second i might have to coin the first repair but on the second i just wait for the repairs to finish and wait for another 75 to appear using that method i got almost 30 000 uranium in last reaver surge.

    per insta repair to my BS it takes 18 coins currently wen all of my fleet is fully armoured it will take 20 coins... i dont think that dredges are that bad anymore

  • emmitt.delong
    emmitt.delong
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 672

    The equations used by the game are not wrong in any sense. These equation are used so that a player can still gain a benefit (all be it a minimal one at higher levels) but prevent a situation where any player can completely negate any form of damage. It isn't as uncommon as some people would think and does maintain a level of balance.

    I'll go out on a limb here and say that in general most peoples issue isn't the actual reward, it's the cost of it. While cost to benefit ratio is in large subjective, many would agree that it feel's off in some way. To that I say patience and perseverance.

    1.) I'll never complain about getting hit. I don't like hitting bases simply because I think it's boring and a waste of resources.
    2.) I have coined a total of +190 gold. This does make me a "coiner". Coining is not cheating. If, like me you can't really afford much then don't but complaining won't help you either.
    3.) Being polite is always better then being an ****.
    4.) At the end of the day, it's just a **** game. Get over it.
  • jaycee
    jaycee
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Sep 2012 Posts: 130

    I'm more amazed with all these **** threads at how little these folks understand basic math concepts.


    I understand that you are wrong.


    To be an increase of 3% of 10%, it would have to be represented differently than just +3%.  You aren't allowed to "assume" in math. 


  • 00zau
    00zau
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2012 Posts: 6,403

    All weapon, special, and armor retrofits add a percentage bonus. A good portion of the weapon retros added a percentage to a stat that was not already a percentage, such as damage or range. Did you expect that a "+3% damage" do make the weapon deal 3% of the enemies health each hit? No. Then why did you expect the defenses on an armor panel to increase by 3% (10 > 13%), instead of increasing the existing bonus by 3% (10% > 10.3%? It's the same thing. Every weapon, special, and armor retrofit has been a percentage increase in the existing stat, not a new percent added on. I'm astounded how many people have got their panties in a twist about this; a single scant thought could have told you this. Did you really think your were gonna get 20% evade armors or 25% resist armors? Or are you all just looking for more things to whine, **** and moan about now?

  • Michael Rega
    Michael Rega
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Jul 2011 Posts: 2,878
    jaycee said:

    I'm more amazed with all these **** threads at how little these folks understand basic math concepts.


    I understand that you are wrong.


    To be an increase of 3% of 10%, it would have to be represented differently than just +3%.  You aren't allowed to "assume" in math. 


    That is because you wrongly assume it's additive. Maybe if you start from the correct theory then it will me sense to you finally :)

    Level 81 Home Sector: 31 / Current Sector: Retired / Sectors Visited: 13 (2), 19, 31 (18), 34, 49 (2), 70, 78, 82, 105, 107, 108, 122 (4), 123 (2), 124, 127, 133, 134, 143, 148, 156, 183, 185, 192 (2), 206, 207, 213 (2), 221 (2), 225, 229 (2), 235 (2), 236, 241, 255 (2), 263, 265, 268, 269, 273 (2), 281, 288, 299, 300, 309, 321, 328, 334, 336 (2), 337, 349 (3), 360, 377, 381 (2), 390, 405, 414 (5), 416, 419, 440, 445, 475, 499 (2), 500
    Alliances: PKC, TLW, KR, ****, RBCS
  • J0LLYB0Y
    J0LLYB0Y
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Jan 2013 Posts: 483

    with the true % being quoted do you actually benefit from a retrofit on something like the D2-S?

  • Detharin
    Detharin
    Greenhorn
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 21

    IMO D20S might be the best armor to refit. Previously subs had a pretty static value to whether they were detected or not. Cat 3 and all stealth armor returned a static value. Subs either worked, or they didn't. Now kixeye has gone From Yes/ No to Yes/No/No at R1/No at R2... Would you make a cat 3 sub and leave off the S armor? Nope, think of the retrofits the same way.

  • LORD DAEMONICUS
    LORD DAEMONICUS
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 254

    Seriously? Another thread complaining about the same percentage increase math which Kixeye uses on all percentage increases? This is not Kixeye math, it is basic pre-algebra math. Nothing was falsely advertised about this increase. A retrofit of an armor panel provides a percentage increase on the panel, not the hull it is attached to, so you got a 3% increase of the 7% evasion modifier on the armor. 

    Also, compare this to any other component retrofit. For example, you coudl have spent your 50,000 uranium to retrofit counter measure systems for a 3% range increase which would have given the base 28 range of the Hailstorm increase from 50% (42 range) to 51.5 (42.4). If you got an extra 3% evade on the D4E panel and put 4 of them on a ship that would have given you an extra 12% evasion. That would have been waaaay out of line with any other 50,000 uranium component retrofit. 

    And you're full of **** as yes there was false advertisemnt all across the board, as that's been Kixeye's strong point throughout the duration of this game's existence.  They said +3% on the retrofit, and they never said it was 3 percent of the 10, where everyone assumes it's the 100.  Technically they did what they were intending to do and really no legal concourse against them, but they were still deceptive and that can be just as bad if you want to go down that road.  Not to mention all the stuff you pay for that they nerf after a month or so, that is illegal as well, so yes they have a proven track record for things like this, it's no surprise they've been sued twice.

  • Androm
    Androm
    Master Tactician
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 2,368

    HB3: Weight + 60% Range +50% : Weight -> Weight * 1.6, Range -> Range * 1.5

    Eng3: Weight +14% Speed +80% : Weight -> Weight * 1.14, Speed -> Speed * 1.8

    Retro Defence: +3% Defence -> Defence * 1.03

    10 -> 10 * 1.03 = 10.3

    7.5 -> 7.5 * 1.03 = 7.725

    Just because defence is quoted as a 'percentage' rather than a 'speed' or 'weight' doesn't change anything - that's merely the metric

    The maths is fine - and after the first such post, perhaps the others might have taken heed

  • DataOutlaw
    DataOutlaw
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 724
    And you're full of **** as yes there was false advertisemnt all across the board, as that's been Kixeye's strong point throughout the duration of this game's existence.  They said +3% on the retrofit, and they never said it was 3 percent of the 10, where everyone assumes it's the 100.  Technically they did what they were intending to do and really no legal concourse against them, but they were still deceptive and that can be just as bad if you want to go down that road.  Not to mention all the stuff you pay for that they nerf after a month or so, that is illegal as well, so yes they have a proven track record for things like this, it's no surprise they've been sued twice.


    There was nothing even deceptive here. There were sold as component retrofit which is a retrofit of a component. A 3% increase is a 3% increase of the component. That is a 3% increase of a D4-E armor panel is a 3% increase of the D4-E armor panel. Thus, a 3% increase of the 10% increase!


    There is no 100% on a D4-E armor panel. Assuming that this retrofit would give you a 3% increaseed evade on the ship you equip it to would be assuming the 3% retrofit on the D4-E armor panel would give you an increase on the hull you equip it to. Nothing in the description ever said anything like that. If you want to retrofit the HULL that is on a different tab int eh retrofit lab and a 10% evade increase on a hull does indeed increase the evade on the hull by 10%. Where would you ever get the idea that retrofitting a component you have installed on the hull would directly increase the stats of the hull? It is increasing the stats of the armor panel, thus a COMPONENT retrofit. 

  • emmitt.delong
    emmitt.delong
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 672

    While the information may be "confusing" in some sense, it is not false advertising. It's similar enough to other aspects of the game (multiple "XX% Resistance" armors, defensive special's, and damage bonuses) that a player should be able to make a logical assumption with regards to it's outcome. As for any "Legal" issues, they really have no bearing on the actual game play.

    1.) I'll never complain about getting hit. I don't like hitting bases simply because I think it's boring and a waste of resources.
    2.) I have coined a total of +190 gold. This does make me a "coiner". Coining is not cheating. If, like me you can't really afford much then don't but complaining won't help you either.
    3.) Being polite is always better then being an ****.
    4.) At the end of the day, it's just a **** game. Get over it.
  • PBJXXX
    PBJXXX
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Sep 2012 Posts: 432

    I just finished the retrofit for the lightweight armor. it claims to give +3% evade bonus. prior to the upgrade the value on my evade armor was 7.5% evade now after the retrofit it says 7.7% evade. So i used 50,000 in uranium  which takes weeks to get unless your insanely coining repairs on fleets at $3 to $5 a pop, for 2 tenths of a percent? Your greed is ruining the game with the excessively long repair times and build times now this?  

    Two things, you are correct the amount of uranium needed based on the amount available for the time put in is very unbalanced. HOWEVER, I have ranked my evade panels and after each upgrade I had a friend hit my fleets with his impulse launcher, torrent missile, and chains and there was a noticeable improvement on the evade....even at less than 1%...the improvement was maybe an extra volley to hit...or in one case the impulse launcher never got off a shockwave...ANYWAY...time for that uranium to hit the WHs...period.

  • Crash_QMA
    Crash_QMA
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Apr 2013 Posts: 1,649

    A percentage increase is an increase of the original value by the given percentage, not the addition of the given percentage to the original.

  • Crash_QMA
    Crash_QMA
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Apr 2013 Posts: 1,649

    The cost to benefit stinks, no one denies that, hulls got the best rap.  Best advice is if you don't like the increase for the amount of effort, then just stay away from it.  Hard Reality

  • LORD DAEMONICUS
    LORD DAEMONICUS
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 254
    And you're full of **** as yes there was false advertisemnt all across the board, as that's been Kixeye's strong point throughout the duration of this game's existence.  They said +3% on the retrofit, and they never said it was 3 percent of the 10, where everyone assumes it's the 100.  Technically they did what they were intending to do and really no legal concourse against them, but they were still deceptive and that can be just as bad if you want to go down that road.  Not to mention all the stuff you pay for that they nerf after a month or so, that is illegal as well, so yes they have a proven track record for things like this, it's no surprise they've been sued twice.


    There was nothing even deceptive here. There were sold as component retrofit which is a retrofit of a component. A 3% increase is a 3% increase of the component. That is a 3% increase of a D4-E armor panel is a 3% increase of the D4-E armor panel. Thus, a 3% increase of the 10% increase!


    There is no 100% on a D4-E armor panel. Assuming that this retrofit would give you a 3% increaseed evade on the ship you equip it to would be assuming the 3% retrofit on the D4-E armor panel would give you an increase on the hull you equip it to. Nothing in the description ever said anything like that. If you want to retrofit the HULL that is on a different tab int eh retrofit lab and a 10% evade increase on a hull does indeed increase the evade on the hull by 10%. Where would you ever get the idea that retrofitting a component you have installed on the hull would directly increase the stats of the hull? It is increasing the stats of the armor panel, thus a COMPONENT retrofit. 

    It was deceptive for the sole fact that they didn't specifically say that it was a 3% increase to the given 10 of the armor panel, although it's basic assumptions.  They could have cleared all this up and stopped the whining before it even began had they flat out said that from the start instead of getting people confused.

  • LORD DAEMONICUS
    LORD DAEMONICUS
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 254

    Okay DataOutlaw, why in the hell would you dislike my post? Is it because I speak the truth and you're just another Kixeye kiss **** or what? C'mon explain yourself.  It's like these stupid **** morons who disliked my submission in the guru contest, even though it was the only one, out of those submitted at that time that made any logical sense.  And here we are again with nobody doing a **** thing about this **** and quite frankly I'm getting tired of this ****.

  • emmitt.delong
    emmitt.delong
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 672

    There's really nothing about this that is deceptive. Kixeye, like many other MMO's use a system of diminishing returns with regards to their defensive or "Mitigation" statistics. If the math applies one way in all other area's why would it suddenly apply another way now. The only statistic defensively on the hulls that follow an addition formula is armor/health. This has been "cleared" up several times over the years by Moderators and Community Managers.

    1.) I'll never complain about getting hit. I don't like hitting bases simply because I think it's boring and a waste of resources.
    2.) I have coined a total of +190 gold. This does make me a "coiner". Coining is not cheating. If, like me you can't really afford much then don't but complaining won't help you either.
    3.) Being polite is always better then being an ****.
    4.) At the end of the day, it's just a **** game. Get over it.
  • paddleboat commander
    paddleboat commander
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Sep 2013 Posts: 120

    Couldn't Kix have solved this problem by changing how they showed it?  Under the words Evade Bonus they have "0.0% >>> +3.0%.  If they had put +7.5% >>> +7.7%  wouldn't that have made it easier to understand?

This discussion has been closed.