Who thinks Hull upgrades (renamed retrofits) should be done in the retrofit lab «12» Go

Grouchy_MF

Blackbeard III

Yes

9 votes so far, all say yes

Doesn't matter how many vote, it's still going to be 100% yes

MillionDlrBil

Just be sure you know that moving them won't change the build pressure. Kix WILL increase their Upgrade and Build times to suit the move to ensure there's exactly the same amount of pressure, if not more. I assure you, what you ask for isn't what you want. 

You want LESS build pressure, THAT is what you should be asking for. It doesn't matter where upgrades are, this makes NO difference, ask for LESS build pressure. 

Grouchy_MF

Yes

MillionDlrBil said:

Just be sure you know that moving them won't change the build pressure. Kix WILL increase their Upgrade and Build times to suit the move to ensure there's exactly the same amount of pressure, if not more. I assure you, what you ask for isn't what you want. 

You want LESS build pressure, THAT is what you should be asking for. It doesn't matter where upgrades are, this makes NO difference, ask for LESS build pressure. 

What I want is to be able to win a ship that only needs to be built like we used to be able to. Tired Of winning ships that are only a shadow of what they need to be in order to perform at the level required for the intended cycle. upgrades were originaly intended to breath new life into outdated hulls now it is a requirement for every hull.

Joanne Schermerhorn

free up ship yard to build new ships  retrow lab sits doing nothing  do 2 builds at once

Alexa the BAE

It was a challenge squeezing money out of retrofit lab.
Then came foundry and that was a big money loss.
THIS is why things are the way they are.

Grouchy_MF

Yes

Alexa the BAE said:

It was a challenge squeezing money out of retrofit lab.
Then came foundry and that was a big money loss.
THIS is why things are the way they are.

the same players that have the I have to have it right now mindset will still spend the gold to get all the newest stuff imediately so the spending wouldn't slow down. what would happen is the non coining players would be able to start to close the gap a bit since the task of building and upgrading could be done in different places 

Templar614

Joanne Schermerhorn said:

free up ship yard to build new ships  retrow lab sits doing nothing  do 2 builds at once

Moving the upgrades away from the shipyard won't have that effect though. What the end result would be is nearly doubling the time it takes to do both actions and having to contend with maintaining a tight schedule with two buildings instead of one. So sure, you can work on two ships at once, but they will each take nearly twice as long to complete.

At this point in time the shipyard economy seems to be pretty dialed in and balanced as desired. It hasn't really changed over the last few tiers. The only noteworthy change is splitting the Garrison cycle into 2 fleets per year instead of 1. Which doesn't change the overall shipyard pressure through out the year, it just reduces the spikes caused by the intro of new Garrison ships and upgrades and spreads them around it around a bit more.

Let's say upgrades shift to the Retrofit Lab, the balance of the system has now been changed and it is out of balance. The amount of natural time available has doubled, so to return to the previous balance point, which seems to be pretty clearly designed and intended, the time investment required to complete a fleet will also nearly double.

Joanne Schermerhorn

like i said retro lab doing nothing

Joanne Schermerhorn

thanku

Quack444

Yes

MillionDlrBil said:

Just be sure you know that moving them won't change the build pressure. Kix WILL increase their Upgrade and Build times to suit the move to ensure there's exactly the same amount of pressure, if not more. I assure you, what you ask for isn't what you want. 

You want LESS build pressure, THAT is what you should be asking for. It doesn't matter where upgrades are, this makes NO difference, ask for LESS build pressure. 

I'd honestly rather have another 7-10 days slapped on each ship and then have it at full power right out of the gate. Retrofit lab was perfectly fine as it was back in the day, there was no gameplay reason to further complicate it. Upgrades as they are now are just worse than retrofits in practically every single way for the players including adding pointless complexity for new/returning players. Not only that but we no longer get a sick skin for reaching certain milestones.

This way of thinking puts a huge blockade in fixing one of the game's biggest issues and if it's practically promised that things are only going to get worse, then that stance is never going to do the game no good whatsoever.

Blackbeard III

Yes

Aipaloovik said:

Alexa the BAE said:

It was a challenge squeezing money out of retrofit lab.
Then came foundry and that was a big money loss.
THIS is why things are the way they are.

the same players that have the I have to have it right now mindset will still spend the gold to get all the newest stuff imediately so the spending wouldn't slow down. what would happen is the non coining players would be able to start to close the gap a bit since the task of building and upgrading could be done in different places 

Only have to see how many coin their Conq upgrades on day 2 of Bounty to see that.

Every month, they drop US$40 just on Conq upgrades. Add another US40 every 2nd month for chore fleet upgrades.

Wasted money, IMO

Here's the issue with upgrades:

1st, you have to get the freaking kits.

THEN you can upgrade each hull one by one, stage by stage. At least the Retrofit Lab retrofitted ALL hulls of that type at once.

Add that raid cycles are all of 2 months. In the days of 4-month raid cycles, folks could slowly build their raid fleet, tweaking the build if they fouled it up a little, & have a perfectly viable fleet to use in raids 3 & 4 of the cycle, & do 'ok-ish' with partial fleets in the earlier raids.

B_B_K

Yes

MillionDlrBil said:

Just be sure you know that moving them won't change the build pressure. Kix WILL increase their Upgrade and Build times to suit the move to ensure there's exactly the same amount of pressure, if not more. I assure you, what you ask for isn't what you want. 

You want LESS build pressure, THAT is what you should be asking for. It doesn't matter where upgrades are, this makes NO difference, ask for LESS build pressure. 

Yada, Yada, Yada Glitcheye won't make money from upgrades there so its not going to happen.

DerpyTheCow

No

You know if that happens they'll double both build time and upgrade time and we now have to keep the shipyard busy 24/7 AND the retrofit lab busy 24/7, right?

Blackbeard III

Yes

B_B_K said:

MillionDlrBil said:

Just be sure you know that moving them won't change the build pressure. Kix WILL increase their Upgrade and Build times to suit the move to ensure there's exactly the same amount of pressure, if not more. I assure you, what you ask for isn't what you want. 

You want LESS build pressure, THAT is what you should be asking for. It doesn't matter where upgrades are, this makes NO difference, ask for LESS build pressure. 

Yada, Yada, Yada Glitcheye won't make money from upgrades there so its not going to happen.

Bwahaha, yeah, right

& all those folks running around with U1 Infils right now, they did that for free?

Blackbeard III

Yes

DerpyTheCow said:

You know if that happens they'll double both build time and upgrade time and we now have to keep the shipyard busy 24/7 AND the retrofit lab busy 24/7, right?

Is your retrofit lab busy? Mine is doing junk, just because it's there, to keep the lazy sods busy lol

If raid cycles went back to longer duration, & lesser targets were tuned for actual grinding, there'd be time to build fleets/play around with other pet projects, like old days

But we can agree to disagree, because honestly, nothing will change, upgrades are too much of a cash-cow

MillionDlrBil

While sure, upgrades certainly bring in money. . . it doesn't seem as though many players are aware that you CAN build and mostly upgrade your raid fleet without coining builds or upgrades. It's actually quite easy to build your raid fleet as there's so very many build tokens available, all you need to do is complete each event for them. And then you spend ALL your slow time (after your blanks are built) UPGRADING your fleet. 

• Save 2 weeks (11 days) of FM tokens before the raid hull drops, and before the raid flag drops (last raid previous cycle and Pillage)
• Get any tokens available in upcoming events, Pillage, TLC and sometimes raids
• Use ALL available slow time after your blanks are built to UPGRADE your fleet
• You will start raid one with 3 built ships and a bunch of U3 ships, with one in the oven being upgraded.
• Use your 3 ships to get tokens in raid to speed up your fleet build. 

There's more to this thought, but I have to start dinner. . . I'm sure that's a pretty good start though to getting your raid fleet built and able to compete for cheap repairs in each event. 

Blackbeard III

Yes

MillionDlrBil said:

While sure, upgrades certainly bring in money. . . it doesn't seem as though many players are aware that you CAN build and mostly upgrade your raid fleet without coining builds or upgrades. It's actually quite easy to build your raid fleet as there's so very many build tokens available, all you need to do is complete each event for them. And then you spend ALL your slow time (after your blanks are built) UPGRADING your fleet. 

• Save 2 weeks (11 days) of FM tokens before the raid hull drops, and before the raid flag drops (last raid previous cycle and Pillage)
• Get any tokens available in upcoming events, Pillage, TLC and sometimes raids
• Use ALL available slow time after your blanks are built to UPGRADE your fleet
• You will start raid one with 3 built ships and a bunch of U3 ships, with one in the oven being upgraded.
• Use your 3 ships to get tokens in raid to speed up your fleet build. 

There's more to this thought, but I have to start dinner. . . I'm sure that's a pretty good start though to getting your raid fleet built and able to compete for cheap repairs in each event. 

Yes, people are very aware they can do that for FREE, MDB.

However, as I said elsewhere, pirates are lazy. They don't do real work, they sail the high seas killing & plundering, because it's easy, & it's fun.

So, they will naturally use their ill-gotten gains to instantly upgrade.

People sometimes don't want to mess around earning all the points to get the upgrade kits. People want whatever, yesterday.

Anyway, enjoy your kangaroo stew

Joanne Schermerhorn

yes its called multitasking doing 2 or more things at once in different places use all buildings to get your full bang for your money

Espeon

Yes

MillionDlrBil said:

Just be sure you know that moving them won't change the build pressure. Kix WILL increase their Upgrade and Build times to suit the move to ensure there's exactly the same amount of pressure, if not more. I assure you, what you ask for isn't what you want. 

You want LESS build pressure, THAT is what you should be asking for. It doesn't matter where upgrades are, this makes NO difference, ask for LESS build pressure. 

The thing is when we used to do our upgrades in the Retrofit Lab, the build times really weren't any different. At least we could upgrade the hull while building it too. We also used to have 3 month cycles and then later 4 when Garrison was removed from raids. We had more time to spend building to make up for it. Now we have 2 month cycles and if you aren't built and upgraded by the time the 2 months is up then you're too far behind because either your fleet won't be good enough to do enough of the targets to make a difference since it is usually not very high paying once it is moved to being a secondary target or it's too hard of a target to do without upgrades which you usually struggle to afford anyways because you have to waste so many points into limited tech to even make the ship worth using too. 

Espeon

Yes

Templar614 said:

Joanne Schermerhorn said:

free up ship yard to build new ships  retrow lab sits doing nothing  do 2 builds at once

Moving the upgrades away from the shipyard won't have that effect though. What the end result would be is nearly doubling the time it takes to do both actions and having to contend with maintaining a tight schedule with two buildings instead of one. So sure, you can work on two ships at once, but they will each take nearly twice as long to complete.

At this point in time the shipyard economy seems to be pretty dialed in and balanced as desired. It hasn't really changed over the last few tiers. The only noteworthy change is splitting the Garrison cycle into 2 fleets per year instead of 1. Which doesn't change the overall shipyard pressure through out the year, it just reduces the spikes caused by the intro of new Garrison ships and upgrades and spreads them around it around a bit more.

Let's say upgrades shift to the Retrofit Lab, the balance of the system has now been changed and it is out of balance. The amount of natural time available has doubled, so to return to the previous balance point, which seems to be pretty clearly designed and intended, the time investment required to complete a fleet will also nearly double.

That doesn't actually make sense... As it is, a build for lets say the Flashbang was a little over 16 days. Now 16 days for 5 ships for just the build. That's 80 days which will extend beyond a 2 month cycle. Now yes you can take time off each week with the Forsaken Mission but not all the tech for it releases all at once. That means multiple refits for the fleet during that 2 months. You also have to do the upgrades on it which you can't even use the Forsaken Mission to speed up because upgrade tokens aren't provided and build tokens can't be used. A lot of times there's either a Heavy Weapon or a CIC that needs put on it too that can only be done after an upgrade too... That for sure is another refit... That's why there's always a problem with keeping up now, because there's too much that needs done in 2 months that can't be done. Along with that you have to somehow find 2 times a year now to build a Forsaken Mission fleet or just fall behind and be forced to wait until Kix gives a free fleet. Now that fleet will also need upgraded but where do you find time to do that in between building new fleets? Can't rely on the Pillage at this point if you fall behind because the low tier targets always have low payouts. 

Wabbitty

Coders should do coding and leave game evolving and planning to others. That was and will always be Kix's downfall. Why double down on built times? Simply because you don't understand how to grow the game and make more $$$ in the process. Sad.

Blackbeard III

Yes

Espeon said:

Templar614 said:

Joanne Schermerhorn said:

free up ship yard to build new ships  retrow lab sits doing nothing  do 2 builds at once

Moving the upgrades away from the shipyard won't have that effect though. What the end result would be is nearly doubling the time it takes to do both actions and having to contend with maintaining a tight schedule with two buildings instead of one. So sure, you can work on two ships at once, but they will each take nearly twice as long to complete.

At this point in time the shipyard economy seems to be pretty dialed in and balanced as desired. It hasn't really changed over the last few tiers. The only noteworthy change is splitting the Garrison cycle into 2 fleets per year instead of 1. Which doesn't change the overall shipyard pressure through out the year, it just reduces the spikes caused by the intro of new Garrison ships and upgrades and spreads them around it around a bit more.

Let's say upgrades shift to the Retrofit Lab, the balance of the system has now been changed and it is out of balance. The amount of natural time available has doubled, so to return to the previous balance point, which seems to be pretty clearly designed and intended, the time investment required to complete a fleet will also nearly double.

That doesn't actually make sense... As it is, a build for lets say the Flashbang was a little over 16 days. Now 16 days for 5 ships for just the build. That's 80 days which will extend beyond a 2 month cycle. Now yes you can take time off each week with the Forsaken Mission but not all the tech for it releases all at once. That means multiple refits for the fleet during that 2 months. You also have to do the upgrades on it which you can't even use the Forsaken Mission to speed up because upgrade tokens aren't provided and build tokens can't be used. A lot of times there's either a Heavy Weapon or a CIC that needs put on it too that can only be done after an upgrade too... That for sure is another refit... That's why there's always a problem with keeping up now, because there's too much that needs done in 2 months that can't be done. Along with that you have to somehow find 2 times a year now to build a Forsaken Mission fleet or just fall behind and be forced to wait until Kix gives a free fleet. Now that fleet will also need upgraded but where do you find time to do that in between building new fleets? Can't rely on the Pillage at this point if you fall behind because the low tier targets always have low payouts. 

Not forgetting that you need to get the upgrade kits as well. If that was change to Titanum & Uranium combined, even a huge amount, no-one would care (it'd be celebrated)

To get the kits, it's either redeem via an event, or via a TLC (which usually involves a lot of damage, depending on the status of the fleet concerned, heck, folks here have griped about the damage dealt in other TLCs already)

Excellent points made about the U1 upgrades/refitting of special U1 equipment.

Kits could/should be made more readily available, ie,a daily log-in bonus/FM (like 10 kits per class/tier, for all classes) because there's nothing worse than not having enough kits by a whisker, & one hull can't be upgraded any further-meaning the shipyard is then put to work doing anything but the fleet that needs the work in the 1st place (assuming the fleet is built as desired)

Kits are a huge bottleneck for the average player. All very well for those who breeze through because they have everything already.

Not just Bigfeet

Yes

MillionDlrBil said:

Just be sure you know that moving them won't change the build pressure. Kix WILL increase their Upgrade and Build times to suit the move to ensure there's exactly the same amount of pressure, if not more. I assure you, what you ask for isn't what you want. 

You want LESS build pressure, THAT is what you should be asking for. It doesn't matter where upgrades are, this makes NO difference, ask for LESS build pressure. 

lets set the record straight, this has nothing to do with any kind of pressure, the reason they or rather you all do not want to do it is it will cut into making people coin, everything kix has done now for years has only been about how to make the layer base coin more and more and to pressure us to the point we almost have to, to stay current, Best example is the FM cycle and building new FM fleets every 6 months when it takes 5 to get them where they need to be. The gambit is prime example as in Nov you plan an x1 upgrade and in Jan to replace them with next fleet Also the 2 months raid cycle you won't change it back to 3 months because it will eat into profits because we will have a hull for extra month and not have to rush to build. The layer base knows what we want but if it interferes in any way with your profits or making the whales have to wait well I think how many years we have asked for reduced build times on everything have been ignored...

Not just Bigfeet

Yes

DerpyTheCow said:

You know if that happens they'll double both build time and upgrade time and we now have to keep the shipyard busy 24/7 AND the retrofit lab busy 24/7, right?

Actually, they can and should do it and leave build/refit times alone that is pure BS what they are saying this is all about money and you know that as well as I do and I have played the game 9+ years, there is no real reason for what they do except $$$$$$$, yeah they would double because they know for fact there are people who would coin it without a second though but more layers that if they did would leave the game for good I know I would.

Blackbeard III

Yes

Not just Bigfeet said:

DerpyTheCow said:

You know if that happens they'll double both build time and upgrade time and we now have to keep the shipyard busy 24/7 AND the retrofit lab busy 24/7, right?

Actually, they can and should do it and leave build/refit times alone that is pure BS what they are saying this is all about money and you know that as well as I do and I have played the game 9+ years, there is no real reason for what they do except $$$$$$$, yeah they would double because they know for fact there are people who would coin it without a second though but more layers that if they did would leave the game for good I know I would.

Remember when the Hellhound came out? 10 days BLANK build time, a day per thrower. & no VXP targets in those days either.

Yet people were running around with fully ranked fleets... Some people have extremely deep pockets here, all I can say.

Bin_Chicken

Yes

Just let the retrofit lab retrofit !, let it do PVE & PVP double down on upgrade times in retrofit lab leave the rest alone, need to upgrade garrison, raid, bounty and defence fleets, didn't hurt too much when we got the extra shipyard not going to hurt letting the retrofit yard do its job either, at this stage of the game heaven forbid it makes some of us happy.

XVIII-Luna

Yes

Blackbeard III said:
Not forgetting that you need to get the upgrade kits as well. If that was change to Titanum & Uranium combined, even a huge amount, no-one would care (it'd be celebrated)
...

Kits are a huge bottleneck for the average player. All very well for those who breeze through because they have everything already.

They'd just move those resources back into being hard to obtain. We'll have to auto elite salvages and hit drac bases for small amounts of uranium because Dredge Fleets aren't spawning when you need them. I'd still take that over the kit system though because at least I have some kind of recourse other than needing to wait on a TLC/event because I'm 10 kits short on my flag for some reason. (totally didnt finish my X1 obliterator flag on the final 2 days of last raid because of this)

Blackbeard III said:
Remember when the Hellhound came out? 10 days BLANK build time, a day per thrower. & no VXP targets in those days either.

Yet people were running around with fully ranked fleets... Some people have extremely deep pockets here, all I can say.

Reminder that this was before they removed armor repair times, most weapons added armor to the ship and Reaver ships had an increased repair modifier stat... All on ships that need to take damage in order to get stronger for a few seconds. You were probably not losing if you hit someone's base with mortar Hellhounds, but that fleet was basically pay to play with its operating costs.

Espeon

Yes

They'd just move those resources back into being hard to obtain. We'll have to auto elite salvages and hit drac bases for small amounts of uranium because Dredge Fleets aren't spawning when you need them. I'd still take that over the kit system though because at least I have some kind of recourse other than needing to wait on a TLC/event because I'm 10 kits short on my flag for some reason. (totally didnt finish my X1 obliterator flag on the final 2 days of last raid because of this)

lol at least there would be a use for Drac Bases again then 

DerpyTheCow

No

Blackbeard III said:

DerpyTheCow said:

You know if that happens they'll double both build time and upgrade time and we now have to keep the shipyard busy 24/7 AND the retrofit lab busy 24/7, right?

Is your retrofit lab busy? Mine is doing junk, just because it's there, to keep the lazy sods busy lol

If raid cycles went back to longer duration, & lesser targets were tuned for actual grinding, there'd be time to build fleets/play around with other pet projects, like old days

But we can agree to disagree, because honestly, nothing will change, upgrades are too much of a cash-cow

Mine is doing junk too, only one person I know has it maxed and he's my 3rd favorite mod.

Back to the topic at hand. Kixeye NEEDS to have us feel rushed for the shipyard. If we could get X1 easily every raid there would be no point in selling it. If they moved upgrades to the retrofit lab they'd still make us keep our shipyard busy 100% of the time by INCREASING build times. 

As far as raid cycles being longer duration....that's a separate topic which I've put quite a lot of thought into. It would also mean an increasing in build times too...

Not just Bigfeet said:

DerpyTheCow said:

You know if that happens they'll double both build time and upgrade time and we now have to keep the shipyard busy 24/7 AND the retrofit lab busy 24/7, right?

Actually, they can and should do it and leave build/refit times alone that is pure BS what they are saying this is all about money and you know that as well as I do and I have played the game 9+ years, there is no real reason for what they do except $$$$$$$, yeah they would double because they know for fact there are people who would coin it without a second though but more layers that if they did would leave the game for good I know I would.

Yes, a company is about money. 

If they moved all the upgrades to the retrofit lab we would all easily get everything U3 for raid 1 and X1 for raid 2 with half our time left over. Who would buy the upgrades in that case? Nobody (okay, maybe a few people would go for X1 by raid 1...but that's far less than current). Therefore, if kixeye did split it they would increase both the build and retrofit time to make us still feel rushed and need to coin to get X1.

DerpyTheCow

No

Not just Bigfeet said:

MillionDlrBil said:

Just be sure you know that moving them won't change the build pressure. Kix WILL increase their Upgrade and Build times to suit the move to ensure there's exactly the same amount of pressure, if not more. I assure you, what you ask for isn't what you want. 

You want LESS build pressure, THAT is what you should be asking for. It doesn't matter where upgrades are, this makes NO difference, ask for LESS build pressure. 

lets set the record straight, this has nothing to do with any kind of pressure, the reason they or rather you all do not want to do it is it will cut into making people coin, everything kix has done now for years has only been about how to make the layer base coin more and more and to pressure us to the point we almost have to, to stay current, Best example is the FM cycle and building new FM fleets every 6 months when it takes 5 to get them where they need to be. The gambit is prime example as in Nov you plan an x1 upgrade and in Jan to replace them with next fleet Also the 2 months raid cycle you won't change it back to 3 months because it will eat into profits because we will have a hull for extra month and not have to rush to build. The layer base knows what we want but if it interferes in any way with your profits or making the whales have to wait well I think how many years we have asked for reduced build times on everything have been ignored...

"lets set the record straight, this has nothing to do with any kind of pressure, the reason they or rather you all do not want to do it is it will cut into making people coin"

You got it. Shipyard pressure makes people coin. 

Removing shipyard pressure will make less people coin. Less people coining = bad for kixeye