Gambit Upgrades or Survival not Working

SIF
SIF
Incursion Leader
Joined Apr 2012 Posts: 1,390
edited 6 Oct 2022, 7:13AM
I was doing a handful of Pillage 116 targets and noticed the damage across my ships didn't seem right. Ships were driven and kept stacked throughout the targets after the initial grouping up for the first turret. So I'm assuming almost all the damage taken is splash and should be equal per ship. And it was, and that's where the problem is. I'm running a fleet of 4 identically built but different Upgrade level ships and a 5th ship built with Countermeasures. 


Gambit Upgrade Expl Survival Pen Survival Survival % Splash DR Repair Time DMG Taken Health Total Armor
Flag U2 165200 165200 826.00% 18000 1h53m26s 5047984 1602016 6650000
#2 U3 165200 165200 826.00% 18000 1h53m10s 5036498 1613502 6650000
#3 U3 165200 165200 826.00% 18000 1h54m44s 5106149 1543851 6650000
#4 U3 Anti 166100 165740 830.5%/828.7% 28000 1h56m08s 5168406 1481594 6650000
#5 U0 133040 133040 665.20% 18000 1h54m55s 5114102 1535898 6650000

Edit: The forum didn't like me posting with tabs, but this became unreadable. So here is a screenshot of my spreadsheet instead:




Ship 4, even with the highest Survival and Splash reduction of the fleet, was doing the worst.

While Ship 5, with the least Survival and comparable Splash reduction to 3 other ships, was faring virtually no worse off than ships that should be doing considerably better than it.


My thought is, even though the upgrade stats are showing on all the ships, they aren't actually applying in battle. I think this is the case because I notice a month or so ago when Gambit kits first became available, upgrading 1 ship to U1 then using it in a target with the other 4 at U0, the mortars were firing at the same rates even with the U1 ship supposedly benefiting from an extra +30% Mortar Reload. This is still the case today as far as I can tell.

It's also very curious why increasing Splash Damage Reduction leads to increased damage. Quite odd.

In any case, is anyone else experiencing no benefit from weeks of upgrades to their ships?
  • Your_shadow
    Your_shadow
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Nov 2015 Posts: 4,570
    I honestly wonder if there's some mechanic at play that focuses more damage towards more survival-based ships.

    & flagships too.

    Well, that's Kix, ripping off the player base since 2011
  • PiratePeteX
    PiratePeteX
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined May 2016 Posts: 236
    I have 2 gambits at U1, rest at U0, haven't noticed any improvement in reload speed
  • Max Thornton
    Max Thornton
    Incursion Leader
    Joined May 2012 Posts: 1,370
    Yep, My U0 with the old weapons, armor and fin ray engine take the same amount of damage as my U2's and U3 flag with the special weapons, current armor and new engines. Nothing has made any difference at all.
  • Capt_ZigZag
    Capt_ZigZag
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Mar 2012 Posts: 137
    Working as intended
  • NoFovos
    NoFovos
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined May 2012 Posts: 202
    Working as intended
    I had no upgrade i play 116 and my best damage was 1h 10 min always, i thought to give 20$ for U3...so after i upgrade them the damage was the same... no matter what i did how i drive....ok? :disappointed:
  • Templar614
    Templar614
    Moderator
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 15,850

    @Blackbeard III said:
    I honestly wonder if there's some mechanic at play that focuses more damage towards more survival-based ships.

    & flagships too.

    Well, that's Kix, ripping off the player base since 2011

    Close.

    King Killer.

    It focuses damage towards the ship with the highest health value. It is basically the opposite of Priority Targeting. Over the years of complaints of damage being focused on a single ship instead of being evenly distributed across the fleet resulted in the advent of King Killer.

    I haven't had a chance to read through this post as thoroughly as I would like, but King Killer is something that is worth mentioning.

  • DeadSinner
    DeadSinner
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined May 2010 Posts: 309

    @Blackbeard III said:
    I honestly wonder if there's some mechanic at play that focuses more damage towards more survival-based ships.

    & flagships too.

    Well, that's Kix, ripping off the player base since 2011

    Close.

    King Killer.

    It focuses damage towards the ship with the highest health value. It is basically the opposite of Priority Targeting. Over the years of complaints of damage being focused on a single ship instead of being evenly distributed across the fleet resulted in the advent of King Killer.

    I haven't had a chance to read through this post as thoroughly as I would like, but King Killer is something that is worth mentioning.


    King Killer explains the damage being similar across all ships, meaning an upgraded fleet will have lower total damage vs an U0 fleet, since the accuracy based weapons with King Killer will keep targeting the strongest ship. BUT, BUT, how would you explain the mention by two players above that upgraded ships aren't firing faster than U0 ships?
    BP UID: 870 - Alpha-tester: I was here before sector 1 existed.
    If you're not having fun with a game, find another game to play.
  • kixeyeuser_1389052315435_1143976878
    kixeyeuser_1389052315435_1143976878
    Greenhorn
    Joined Apr 2014 Posts: 13
    a few weeks ago kix claimed to have "fixed" the reload on gambit hull that had been upgraded to U1, yet to this day, I only have 1 ship at U1 the rest at U0, and they ALL fire at the exact same time and rate!!!!! So either they lied about "fixing" this, or they are incompetent when it comes to doing what they said they did? Either way, IT'S NOT FIXED!!!
  • Templar614
    Templar614
    Moderator
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 15,850
    I have 2 gambits at U1, rest at U0, haven't noticed any improvement in reload speed

    @Blackbeard III said:
    I honestly wonder if there's some mechanic at play that focuses more damage towards more survival-based ships.

    & flagships too.

    Well, that's Kix, ripping off the player base since 2011

    Close.

    King Killer.

    It focuses damage towards the ship with the highest health value. It is basically the opposite of Priority Targeting. Over the years of complaints of damage being focused on a single ship instead of being evenly distributed across the fleet resulted in the advent of King Killer.

    I haven't had a chance to read through this post as thoroughly as I would like, but King Killer is something that is worth mentioning.


    King Killer explains the damage being similar across all ships, meaning an upgraded fleet will have lower total damage vs an U0 fleet, since the accuracy based weapons with King Killer will keep targeting the strongest ship. BUT, BUT, how would you explain the mention by two players above that upgraded ships aren't firing faster than U0 ships?
    a few weeks ago kix claimed to have "fixed" the reload on gambit hull that had been upgraded to U1, yet to this day, I only have 1 ship at U1 the rest at U0, and they ALL fire at the exact same time and rate!!!!! So either they lied about "fixing" this, or they are incompetent when it comes to doing what they said they did? Either way, IT'S NOT FIXED!!!
    Just checked a U3 vs a U0 and after a couple volleys they are pretty clearly not synced up when firing. On a fully built and ranked ship you are talking about a difference of around 0.15 seconds. If you look at it with unranked ships it is VERY clear that it works since you are talking closer to a 1 second difference. Conveniently I still had the shells made from the last time I checked to see if the reload worked. 

    The fix that happened was a mismatch between the number being shown in the stat block and the number shown in the upgrade box. I want to say one was 20% and the other was 30%. Now they both match at 30%.
  • Templar614
    Templar614
    Moderator
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 15,850
    SIF said:
    I was doing a handful of Pillage 116 targets and noticed the damage across my ships didn't seem right. Ships were driven and kept stacked throughout the targets after the initial grouping up for the first turret. So I'm assuming almost all the damage taken is splash and should be equal per ship. And it was, and that's where the problem is. I'm running a fleet of 4 identically built but different Upgrade level ships and a 5th ship built with Countermeasures. 


    Gambit Upgrade Expl Survival Pen Survival Survival % Splash DR Repair Time DMG Taken Health Total Armor
    Flag U2 165200 165200 826.00% 18000 1h53m26s 5047984 1602016 6650000
    #2 U3 165200 165200 826.00% 18000 1h53m10s 5036498 1613502 6650000
    #3 U3 165200 165200 826.00% 18000 1h54m44s 5106149 1543851 6650000
    #4 U3 Anti 166100 165740 830.5%/828.7% 28000 1h56m08s 5168406 1481594 6650000
    #5 U0 133040 133040 665.20% 18000 1h54m55s 5114102 1535898 6650000

    Edit: The forum didn't like me posting with tabs, but this became unreadable. So here is a screenshot of my spreadsheet instead:




    Ship 4, even with the highest Survival and Splash reduction of the fleet, was doing the worst.

    While Ship 5, with the least Survival and comparable Splash reduction to 3 other ships, was faring virtually no worse off than ships that should be doing considerably better than it.


    My thought is, even though the upgrade stats are showing on all the ships, they aren't actually applying in battle. I think this is the case because I notice a month or so ago when Gambit kits first became available, upgrading 1 ship to U1 then using it in a target with the other 4 at U0, the mortars were firing at the same rates even with the U1 ship supposedly benefiting from an extra +30% Mortar Reload. This is still the case today as far as I can tell.

    It's also very curious why increasing Splash Damage Reduction leads to increased damage. Quite odd.

    In any case, is anyone else experiencing no benefit from weeks of upgrades to their ships?
    One issue here is that you can no longer compare the performance of individual ships within a fleet in the same target. As I mentioned in a previous comment, King Killer ruins that. Weapons with King Killer will actively target the ship with the highest amount of health which results in a pretty even damage distribution.

    The "best" way to make a comparison on the effects of upgrades is to look a uniform fleet level. Hit a few targets with U0 to establish a baseline, then upgrade the fleet to U1 and hit a few more, then U2, U3, and finally X1 (if it is available). Hitting the exact same target with the exact same entry point with the exact same hitting method yields the best results. I am well aware that trying to set something like this up is time consuming and costly as I did it with Lionfish when they were still around, but it demonstrated the point very clearly.

    You should still be able to note marginal improvements with each successive upgrade completed, but the overall picture may be a little skewed which is why I am suggesting comparing fleets of a uniform upgrade level.
  • Your_shadow
    Your_shadow
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Nov 2015 Posts: 4,570

    @Blackbeard III said:
    I honestly wonder if there's some mechanic at play that focuses more damage towards more survival-based ships.

    & flagships too.

    Well, that's Kix, ripping off the player base since 2011

    Close.

    King Killer.

    It focuses damage towards the ship with the highest health value. It is basically the opposite of Priority Targeting. Over the years of complaints of damage being focused on a single ship instead of being evenly distributed across the fleet resulted in the advent of King Killer.

    I haven't had a chance to read through this post as thoroughly as I would like, but King Killer is something that is worth mentioning.

    Thanks for the clarification, Mod of the Year :smile:
  • CaptEinstein
    CaptEinstein
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 191
    To agree with Templar, yes, King Killer is a major change to the way you have to look at building your ships and comparing differences.  I do appreciate that the damage is more spread out over the whole fleet rather than concentrated on a single ship, but it takes different thinking.  Case in point:  In a recent raid, one of my ships was not yet as upgraded as the other ships, and so its survival number was less than the others. I thought I would add some survival by making it the first to have armor applied to it.  The result was that it then took MORE damage (had more repair time) than the rest, because it started out with more armor points.  So, in that case, because of King Killer, the ship with less survival was taking more damage, because it had more armor points.  Weird but true.
  • XVIII-Luna
    XVIII-Luna
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Sep 2018 Posts: 614
    edited 6 Oct 2022, 10:50PM
    I have 2 gambits at U1, rest at U0, haven't noticed any improvement in reload speed
    This is because 30% reload is a pathetically small improvement.

    If you want to know how small, here's a basic rundown on Duke/Rook mortar reload:
    Max VXP: 1.2 (+U1: 1.13) -0.07
    VXP/Asc. Mortar sys.: 1.09 (+U1: 1.03) -0.06
    VXP/Asc. Mort. Sys/CM Loader 4: 1.0 (+U1: 0.95) -0.05

    U1 is about a 6% difference at best and a 5% difference at worst. It does provide an improvement... technically.
    Pretty trash considering it's the only bonus you get out of the entire upgrade level. It would have been nice to get something with it like a bonus to splash.
    Started in 2011, sector 19.
  • drekieandbrejer
    drekieandbrejer
    Greenhorn
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 4
    Pillage raid, am able to hit basically 2 targets, 116's, then its repair time. I was so excited because I have 4 of my ships at U2. At least I'll get a couple of new engines I suppose.

  • CaptEinstein
    CaptEinstein
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 191
    I have 2 gambits at U1, rest at U0, haven't noticed any improvement in reload speed
    This is because 30% reload is a pathetically small improvement.

    If you want to know how small, here's a basic rundown on Duke/Rook mortar reload:
    Max VXP: 1.2 (+U1: 1.13) -0.07
    VXP/Asc. Mortar sys.: 1.09 (+U1: 1.03) -0.06
    VXP/Asc. Mort. Sys/CM Loader 4: 1.0 (+U1: 0.95) -0.05

    U1 is about a 6% difference at best and a 5% difference at worst. It does provide an improvement... technically.
    Pretty trash considering it's the only bonus you get out of the entire upgrade level. It would have been nice to get something with it like a bonus to splash.
    Well, okay, but U3 includes 50% building damage at least.  
  • XVIII-Luna
    XVIII-Luna
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Sep 2018 Posts: 614
    CaptEinstein said:
    Well, okay, but U3 includes 50% building damage at least.  
    Yeah, that's nice and what the ship wants. The thing is though, U3 wouldn't be a bad upgrade even without the building damage, while U1 is just plain bad for being an entire upgrade level. That miniscule amount of reload does not help the Gambit at all with the way it is played, they aren't like other mortar ships who park and do a lot of continuous attacking.
    Started in 2011, sector 19.
  • Alessandro Bonifai
    Alessandro Bonifai
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 312
    bought u3 update and got sme dmg in 116 then whit no up.... **** my 20 euros wasted.... u3 bonus are not applieD in 116 is possible regreat by up and have money back ? ty kix
    image
  • PChicken
    PChicken
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Nov 2018 Posts: 454
    looking at the mod reply's i ask myself is it worth time or money upgrading if it makes no difference due to this king killer thing we need compo :(
  • dodo jona
    dodo jona
    Greenhorn
    Joined May 2018 Posts: 24
    king killer is just another couple of words for exploiting the player base. sadly no more coins from a lot of players. no freebies for a while and players wonder why the game is dead.
  • SIF
    SIF
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Apr 2012 Posts: 1,390

    @Blackbeard III said:
    I honestly wonder if there's some mechanic at play that focuses more damage towards more survival-based ships.

    & flagships too.

    Well, that's Kix, ripping off the player base since 2011

    Close.

    King Killer.

    It focuses damage towards the ship with the highest health value. It is basically the opposite of Priority Targeting. Over the years of complaints of damage being focused on a single ship instead of being evenly distributed across the fleet resulted in the advent of King Killer.

    I haven't had a chance to read through this post as thoroughly as I would like, but King Killer is something that is worth mentioning.

    Thanks, Templar. This makes sense. Explains other stuff too.

    It's an interesting design choice. Multiple potential ways to make the devs, the company, or both look bad; but actually makes things easier and better for some. Not sure why so many are 100% negative on it. It's not actually more damage, unless you put a poorly built ship in with properly built ones. It's just a drastic change to how it worked for years (target nearest ship). It means I don't have to micro manage my driving to even out the damage across a fleet myself, which during a raid is exactly what I want to happen. I want as much of that 12-13hr damage (at 1/2 time) when sunk as possible when I'm playing as a non-coiner and going to be away from the game for possibly 18 hours anyway.
  • APimpin
    APimpin
    Potential Threat
    Joined Jan 2012 Posts: 51
    Maybe it has something to do with your builds. I was able to hit 7-8 116s during pillage before letting them repair overnight.  Each day I would stack that many, then use MKII to do to the 114s. repeat each day. Attached is the overview for what my bonuses look like for my Gambit build. 
    APimpin _So[FOFF]
    Level: 63         3 mil ID
    Sector: 441
    Ships: All of them now
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/user/chaosstone504?feature=watch[/url]

  • Sputnik001
    Sputnik001
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Jun 2013 Posts: 2,502
    PChicken said:
    looking at the mod reply's i ask myself is it worth time or money upgrading if it makes no difference due to this king killer thing we need compo :(
    Its a tough question, especially considering what X1 might be.....
  • Templar614
    Templar614
    Moderator
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 15,850

    @PChicken said:
    looking at the mod reply's i ask myself is it worth time or money upgrading if it makes no difference due to this king killer thing we need compo :(

    That is most certainly not what I said. Upgrading will reduce the overall repair time of the fleet. But pushing one ship to U3 and leaving the rest at U0 will still result in damage being spread uniformly across the fleet due to King Killer.

    As in, if your fleet was taking 2 hours damage at U0, and all the ships having close to 24 minutes damage each.

    And then upgrading a single ship to U3 might drop that to 1 hour 50 minutes with each ship having close to 22 minutes damage each.

    The point of mentioning King Killer is to point out that upgrading a ship and then comparing the individual repair time of ships is not a good way to look at it. For a more accurate comparison you need to look at what it does to the total fleet repair time to see the value.

  • Templar614
    Templar614
    Moderator
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 15,850

    @Marr4 said:
    king killer is just another couple of words for exploiting the player base. sadly no more coins from a lot of players. no freebies for a while and players wonder why the game is dead.

    Personally, I don't mind it. It means there is less micromanagement involved with maintaining your fleet health. It lowers the skill ceiling.

  • Templar614
    Templar614
    Moderator
    Joined Jul 2012 Posts: 15,850

    @SIF said:
    Thanks, Templar. This makes sense. Explains other stuff too.

    It's an interesting design choice. Multiple potential ways to make the devs, the company, or both look bad; but actually makes things easier and better for some. Not sure why so many are 100% negative on it. It's not actually more damage, unless you put a poorly built ship in with properly built ones. It's just a drastic change to how it worked for years (target nearest ship). It means I don't have to micro manage my driving to even out the damage across a fleet myself, which during a raid is exactly what I want to happen. I want as much of that 12-13hr damage (at 1/2 time) when sunk as possible when I'm playing as a non-coiner and going to be away from the game for possibly 18 hours anyway.

    Exactly.

    The down side is that it is more difficult to get a dedicated tank ship to work. Which the majority of players wouldn't do anyway.

  • SIF
    SIF
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Apr 2012 Posts: 1,390

    @SIF said:
    Thanks, Templar. This makes sense. Explains other stuff too.

    It's an interesting design choice. Multiple potential ways to make the devs, the company, or both look bad; but actually makes things easier and better for some. Not sure why so many are 100% negative on it. It's not actually more damage, unless you put a poorly built ship in with properly built ones. It's just a drastic change to how it worked for years (target nearest ship). It means I don't have to micro manage my driving to even out the damage across a fleet myself, which during a raid is exactly what I want to happen. I want as much of that 12-13hr damage (at 1/2 time) when sunk as possible when I'm playing as a non-coiner and going to be away from the game for possibly 18 hours anyway.

    Exactly.

    The down side is that it is more difficult to get a dedicated tank ship to work. Which the majority of players wouldn't do anyway.

    That is something I was thinking about as a negative, high evade or otherwise specially built tanks are no longer a viable option. Even though they were viable before, I don't think I've tried one personally since Reclaimers. I'll drive a considerable amount, but I don't like using the left and right arrows if I don't have to. I even refit the Reclaimers at some point to get rid of the speed difference and extra evade on I think the flag. It was always a risk of the fleet splitting and not worth the trouble for marginal benefits imo.

    What some don't seem to be getting, from the last few you replied to, is KK usually makes your choice of which ship to upgrade or use at any time less important or at least easier, since it will almost always benefit the fleet as a whole. You're driving through a target wanting your best X1 ship to take most of the damage? A U0 ships will eventually get smacked, take a lot of damage, and then targeting will go back to the X1. So your damage will look wildly different between two or three targets, but by the time you dock them it will have made the fleet last through more targets total which is what matters most.
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