Upgrade Greed

OGRE1971
OGRE1971
Force to be Reckoned With
Joined Apr 2012 Posts: 1,619
This is not meant to be an offensive in any way. I understand the need for Kixeye to make money. I spend to have fun, not out of a necessity to play the game. I left the game once before because greed got in the way of a good game, I am seeing the same pattern of greed once again. I got 4 friends back into the game this year, they are like me and spend a bit as well, but they are saying the same things I am and I can see them leaving again.

When upgrades were introduced they were to make fleets more viable to harder targets, to give a player a leg up. I was totally on board when this idea was introduced. I had the choice to either spend time or money on this. At first a ship was introduced and a month or so later the upgrade came out. Fine, it gave me time to finish what I had going on and start working on them, or in my case, coin it. Now, a ship comes out and the upgrade comes out at the same time. Still, not so bad if it is just to get a leg up on the targets. That is not the case any more. A player HAS to have the upgrades because targets are designed around them. I try to play fairly cheap, I don't see the sense in spending the price of a new XBox game every month just to do a chore that I actually hate doing. 

I could comment on quite a few areas in the game where it has become a costly chore to play but I feel the upgrades are by far the most ridiculously overpriced, in time and coin, in the game

I know there are many in the game who will disagree with what I have said and their opinion is theirs and I will not debate them. But the truth is I don't want to play a game that requires me to sit in front of a screen for hours every day or coin like I am a billionaire. I just want a game to have fun on, to get on when he kids are in school or have gone to bed. So many like me have lives, and tbh this game really isn't good enough to spend that much money on.

I came back to this game because  I love the game. I stayed because I seen improvements in the pricing. I hate to say, I will end up leaving again if the cost of playing the game continues to soar.  


  • jschlueter1
    jschlueter1
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2015 Posts: 714
    OGRE1971 said:
    This is not meant to be an offensive in any way. I understand the need for Kixeye to make money. I spend to have fun, not out of a necessity to play the game. I left the game once before because greed got in the way of a good game, I am seeing the same pattern of greed once again. I got 4 friends back into the game this year, they are like me and spend a bit as well, but they are saying the same things I am and I can see them leaving again.

    When upgrades were introduced they were to make fleets more viable to harder targets, to give a player a leg up. I was totally on board when this idea was introduced. I had the choice to either spend time or money on this. At first a ship was introduced and a month or so later the upgrade came out. Fine, it gave me time to finish what I had going on and start working on them, or in my case, coin it. Now, a ship comes out and the upgrade comes out at the same time. Still, not so bad if it is just to get a leg up on the targets. That is not the case any more. A player HAS to have the upgrades because targets are designed around them. I try to play fairly cheap, I don't see the sense in spending the price of a new XBox game every month just to do a chore that I actually hate doing. 

    I could comment on quite a few areas in the game where it has become a costly chore to play but I feel the upgrades are by far the most ridiculously overpriced, in time and coin, in the game

    I know there are many in the game who will disagree with what I have said and their opinion is theirs and I will not debate them. But the truth is I don't want to play a game that requires me to sit in front of a screen for hours every day or coin like I am a billionaire. I just want a game to have fun on, to get on when he kids are in school or have gone to bed. So many like me have lives, and tbh this game really isn't good enough to spend that much money on.

    I came back to this game because  I love the game. I stayed because I seen improvements in the pricing. I hate to say, I will end up leaving again if the cost of playing the game continues to soar.  


    "...coin like I am a billionaire." And this mindset is the problem, because it's not necessary.
  • jschlueter1
    jschlueter1
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2015 Posts: 714
    Cpt_Izno said:
    You realized when a game has taken the "go south" road, when you stop recommend the game to your friends...
    When i started the game, i was bringing friends, and recommended it to everyone i knew.
    Now, no way!
    It is too greedy and no fun anymore.
    Once again guys, they wouldn't continue the upgrade stuff if people didn't coin them. There is absolutely no doubt upgrades are VERY unpopular, I don't know a single player, not even one, that likes them. BUT-people coin them, there are plenty of wealthy players who have no trouble affording them. These whales drive the upgrades-period. If people stopped coining them, they would go away. Fact.
    Wealthy? Really? The upgrades for my raid fleets generally cost between $20-$25. Such a bank-breaker. It costs my wife and I at least that much to get value meals at McDonald's.
  • DerpyTheCow
    DerpyTheCow
    Master Tactician
    Joined Aug 2012 Posts: 2,303
    OGRE1971 said:
    I know there are many in the game who will disagree with what I have said and their opinion is theirs and I will not debate them. But the truth is I don't want to play a game that requires me to sit in front of a screen for hours every day or coin like I am a billionaire. I just want a game to have fun on, to get on when he kids are in school or have gone to bed. So many like me have lives, and tbh this game really isn't good enough to spend that much money on.
    I'd like to point out something here, and take some of the drama out of it.

    In Battle Pirates, you stay "caught up" with some combination of time and money, on a spectrum. Some will spend a ton of money and hardly any time grinding. Others (such as myself) will spend very little money and a ton of time grinding. I've hit 150 targets this raid, and spent about 15 coins. Others hit two targets, and blitz x100 each one.
    You don't need to spend hundreds of dollars per month or 12 hours a day every day, but you do need to contribute some. 10 hours of play time a week and 50 coins a month, as an example.

    Now, it is possible to play the game and get all the PvE stuff *nearly* fully upgraded with no coins. To do that you need good planning and yes sometimes play this a few hours a day. And, if you fall behind in a few certain events it sets you back further. 

    ___

    Now let's talk about upgrades. Upgrades are not required, but they help. By my estinames, the X1 hull is generally about twice as good (you take around half the damage) as a U0 fleet. I am sure that Kixeye tests both a U0 and an X1 fleet in the targets (do I have proof? no. Do I think they do a enough testing? no. Do I have any data to back that up? no).

    We see that without upgrades you can still do the targets for the months to come, my U0 mutineer fleet is still useful. For a while (Pegasus) I didn't do a single upgrade even when I had tokens because I was tired of people saying UpGrAdEs ArE rEqUiReD, so I used U0 fleets and played the game fine. People still complained...so I have been doing what upgrades I can for free which is generally half X1/U3 for the second raid and full X1 a month or two later.

    Now, the purpose of upgrades is to give us something to do in between the first and second raids of the cycle. I know i have my ships 100% built by the time the first raid ends (for free). So...if you did not have upgrades what would you build in the second month? Kixeye needs to give you something, so they make money. Upgrades allow them to keep your shipyard busy longer, and if we didn't have them they would release a bunch of tech you needed to refit...another better flagship....something (Kix, don't get any ideas).

    If you are willing to put in a combination of time and money, the game is actually very well paced on the PvE side. Just get it out of your head that you need a U3 fleet a week after it comes out. Upgrades are optional and you could play and progress in the game fine without them. In my experience, players fall behind because they keep upgrading the old (now much less useful) hull instead of building the new one.


    TL:DR: Upgrades are not actually required, and you can get a full fleet done for PvE in the current system if you are already caught up.
    When I am not helping people on forums, and I'm not banned, I run a YouTube channel.  I focus on actually helping players in the game. I respond to every comment on there, so it is the best way to find me. If you want more info click the link below.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/DerpyTheCow47?sub_confirmation=1
  • Max Thornton
    Max Thornton
    Incursion Leader
    Joined May 2012 Posts: 1,100
    I wouldn't spend a dime on this game and asked my friends to stop sending gifts years ago.
  • DerpyTheCow
    DerpyTheCow
    Master Tactician
    Joined Aug 2012 Posts: 2,303

    It seems what I’m saying isn’t getting through.

    Upgrades. Are. Not. Required.

    They help yes, I said that. Do you need them? No. Can you X1 a fleet for free before the end of it’s useful life? Yes. Do you need X1 to do the raid? No

    When I am not helping people on forums, and I'm not banned, I run a YouTube channel.  I focus on actually helping players in the game. I respond to every comment on there, so it is the best way to find me. If you want more info click the link below.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/DerpyTheCow47?sub_confirmation=1
  • jschlueter1
    jschlueter1
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2015 Posts: 714
    I see a couple of rebuttals to what Derpy said, and they are of the, "But, but, but, Kix is stupid" variety, long on emotion, but short on facts. What Derpy says is completely true, and I know because I've seen and done it personally. I've seen the videos he's made using U0 ships for low damage, simply to show that it can be done. Derpy has taught me a ton over the last little while, and I've been playing since blackwater days. What's ridiculous is I've literally seen people watch a video he's done, showing how the targets can be done with U0 fleets, then comment over and over about how it can't be done according to them. It's all just excuses being made to cover for a lack of ability. Ren P has done the same thing, but still has people making excuses on his posts too. I myself have been trying to tell people for years how to get a fleet done in time for a raid using little to no coin. Some follow what I've said and get ahead, but so many others just dig their heels in and tell me I'm full of it. It gets frustrating, but it is what it is I guess.
  • DerpyTheCow
    DerpyTheCow
    Master Tactician
    Joined Aug 2012 Posts: 2,303
    The problem is the disparity between X1 and U0 these days.Anyone recall kixeye stating they would not tune targets towards X1 fleets?I sure do,and there have been several targets and tlcs lately that have been specifically aimed at X1 upgraded fleets.To those of you that keep saying upgrades aren't required my reply to you is stick around ;) cause they will be,and chances are we will even get more upgrade levels.
    Well, that's the cynical approach to this...which I don't blame anyone for taking
    When I am not helping people on forums, and I'm not banned, I run a YouTube channel.  I focus on actually helping players in the game. I respond to every comment on there, so it is the best way to find me. If you want more info click the link below.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/DerpyTheCow47?sub_confirmation=1
  • jschlueter1
    jschlueter1
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2015 Posts: 714
    I see a couple of rebuttals to what Derpy said, and they are of the, "But, but, but, Kix is stupid" variety, long on emotion, but short on facts. What Derpy says is completely true, and I know because I've seen and done it personally. I've seen the videos he's made using U0 ships for low damage, simply to show that it can be done. Derpy has taught me a ton over the last little while, and I've been playing since blackwater days. What's ridiculous is I've literally seen people watch a video he's done, showing how the targets can be done with U0 fleets, then comment over and over about how it can't be done according to them. It's all just excuses being made to cover for a lack of ability. Ren P has done the same thing, but still has people making excuses on his posts too. I myself have been trying to tell people for years how to get a fleet done in time for a raid using little to no coin. Some follow what I've said and get ahead, but so many others just dig their heels in and tell me I'm full of it. It gets frustrating, but it is what it is I guess.
    Well Mr Schlueter, you may be correct in principal about not needing the upgrades and even getting them for free "eventually". That being said, the upgrades are there to make MONEY, period. They serve no other purpose in the game. They are WILDELY unpopular with essentially every player I know. Do they do them? Sure, because they want to stay current. Do some coin them, absolutely, hence the reason Kixeye added them. Same goes for the change in PVP and base attacks. They knew people would continually try to beat a base if it auto repaired and they were given another chance after a practice run. Sure, It was a financial idea. They are a business. But in the end, things stay on the game if it makes them money, if not, they change to another plan. I didn't say they were stupid for doing it. It get very annoying. Just like the "shard" thing. Again, VERY unpopular. But they like doing them. Regardless of yours or others opinions, they are losing players. I just hate to see it happen when it shouldn't
    I never said I liked upgrades - I don't. Never said they aren't losing players either.
  • Dave Martin
    Dave Martin
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Sep 2012 Posts: 711
    every fleet i have is not finished upgrading. despite what kix says there IS no time to upgrade a fleet during the short raid cycles without coining. Also even after a raid cycle there is no time to finish upgrading the last raid cycle fleet since the new must have raid fleet needs to be built.

    It is just a cycle that will never end and those that throw money at it, well either have no life or more money to know what to do with.



  • Dopey_87
    Dopey_87
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Jun 2014 Posts: 233
    Reading thru all this I realize you all have overlooked one key point... Upgrades are NOT a new thing in this game. How and where they are done IS!! Once upon a time we called them retrofits, and they had their own cute lil lab to get them done in, AND they were retroactive, meaning it applied to all current and future built hull/weapon/special/etc. Moving them to the SY and making us do one hull at a time is a money tactic, nothing more. That at least we can all agree on so far. I also seem to remember the players asking for the retro lab/foundry to be brought back to usefullness/updated? Kinda dropped the ball all around with this fiasco... Just my opinion, could be wrong
  • FFRODO
    FFRODO
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Feb 2017 Posts: 194
     The word greed gets thrown around a lot and It doesn’t seem to accompany much understanding of business models. This game at a minimum will need a couple of software devs (1 senior at least) a database architect and admin (to handle customer card data and profile data). There is artwork involved so a designer too. At the corporate site they need IT, CS, legal and marketing.  You will also need to factor in ground rates/rents, bills and server costs. When they did the 12 days of xmas, 12 benefactors were listed. Some of them may have dual roles I don’t know. Spend 10 minutes on a google search for mid-level wages of the roles I listed to get a rough idea of cost/overhead.

     For revenue, we can only guess at player numbers but it’s generally agreed its upper ceiling is 30k. How many of those are free to play players?  How many are alt accounts of free to play players? How many are alt accounts of coiners? (some people spend twice sure, some wont they will spread their total money over the multiple accounts). Actual coiners will only be a fraction of that 30k.

    Using some hypothetical approximates, 10 staff earning 40k p/a + another 100k for the miscellaneous costs adds up to 500k p/a. “If” you have a spending base of 10k they each need to spend 50 p/a. That’s before thinking about greed/profit. That’s just a hypothetical framework. Move the sliders up and down to wherever you think is realistic for this game. Outside of upgrades there isn’t a lot you can spend money on in this game. Without the revenue from upgrades this game would probably go under very quickly.

        

  • FFRODO
    FFRODO
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Feb 2017 Posts: 194
    OGRE1971 said: 
    Since this is a discussion about upgrades and not the time it takes to actually do them I will focus on that. 

    The majority of players have lives. They work, they take care of their children, they spend time with their wife/husband/family, they take care of their homes, etc. When once upon a time we could find a couple hours here and there to grind our points, we are now watching a timer for when our fleet is repaired so we can grind another 10-20 minutes only to have to do it again and again and again- and that is only if you have nothing to do that day. Once again, we have lives and this is just a game. 

    Upgrades are the only way to do events any more- this has nothing to do with being able to do something- this has to do with being able to do something AND have fun- which is what playing a game is all about. 

    You are right though, it is possible to remain current if you want to watch a clock for your next repair time to be done. Personally I believe a GAME shouldn't require a person to use a timer so they can be on the game every 3-5 hours. Personally I would prefer playing a game and having fun. But you are right, you don't need to upgrades to be current, only an alarm clock.





    I split this out from previous reply as i think its a different question/argument.   

    Im not sure what you mean about waiting on a timer for repairs?  If you dont coin repairs then its slow repairs and thats how its always been in this game. If you were to ask a doctor or a nurse or look at gov advice on how long you should sit at a computer it will say not much longer than an hour and then take a break. Its bad for your back, your eyes and your mental health. I have played for a long time so i remember spamming seawolves all weekend and it really wasnt healthy. Wheter it was deliberate or accidental you cant blame the product for forcing players to take regular breaks.

    Im reading between the lines a little so correct me if im wrong but it sounds like you`re saying, you dont want to spend hours playing. You either cant or wont coin upgrades and presumably you arent getting enough from events to keep current and it isnt fun. This game has always been seattime or coin (sometimes both) so if you arent prepared to do either what are you realistically expecting? and what is different now than what it was back in the day?  

    It seems that you`re frustrated but I dont see any ask for advice or help. There are players in here and alliances who might be able to help with some strategy advice or maybe a little prepping in an event if you ask. Shipyard management is crucial. Maybe theres a couple tips someone can give you how best to tackle builds/upgrades. It is possible in a cycle to have a good build with some upgrades very cheaply and capable of tackling.event targets.
  • jschlueter1
    jschlueter1
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2015 Posts: 714
    Dopey_87 said:
    Reading thru all this I realize you all have overlooked one key point... Upgrades are NOT a new thing in this game. How and where they are done IS!! Once upon a time we called them retrofits, and they had their own cute lil lab to get them done in, AND they were retroactive, meaning it applied to all current and future built hull/weapon/special/etc. Moving them to the SY and making us do one hull at a time is a money tactic, nothing more. That at least we can all agree on so far. I also seem to remember the players asking for the retro lab/foundry to be brought back to usefullness/updated? Kinda dropped the ball all around with this fiasco... Just my opinion, could be wrong
    You forgot the escalation tech they used to throw at us that meant numerous refits every cycle. I think I prefer upgrades to refits, but I'd rather have neither.

  • Dopey_87
    Dopey_87
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Jun 2014 Posts: 233
    Dopey_87 said:
    Reading thru all this I realize you all have overlooked one key point... Upgrades are NOT a new thing in this game. How and where they are done IS!! Once upon a time we called them retrofits, and they had their own cute lil lab to get them done in, AND they were retroactive, meaning it applied to all current and future built hull/weapon/special/etc. Moving them to the SY and making us do one hull at a time is a money tactic, nothing more. That at least we can all agree on so far. I also seem to remember the players asking for the retro lab/foundry to be brought back to usefullness/updated? Kinda dropped the ball all around with this fiasco... Just my opinion, could be wrong
    You forgot the escalation tech they used to throw at us that meant numerous refits every cycle. I think I prefer upgrades to refits, but I'd rather have neither.

    The limited tech and such are still being thrown at us constantly, so the refits are still there to be done ALONG with the upgrades.... sure glad they reduced build times for us *eyeroll*
  • JunkYard 3.0
    JunkYard 3.0
    Potential Threat
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 76
    IMHO it is not the upgrade isseu where this all go`s about , i personal have tryed to explain people how to plan your raid fleet .. stock 2 weeks of fm tokens when ya know when raid is. from the kick off time from raid get the needed points to redeem the hull and start building them with 1 thud1. you wil be able have 4 shells out before vxp weekend kicks off..  then use next comming fm tokens on the build.. after vxp i usual emediatly start to ugrade them in stead of finish the build, and when fm is there i speed build em. Then mostly there is a TLC as wel to help with build and upgrades .. this way i mostly have an U3 regular ships fleet by start of first raid.. the lead ship needs mostly some work and you can choose coin a few tokens or not .. but mostly it is planning of your fm tokens and not forget to do em TLC`s..  but if you gonna use the fm tokens on new defenders or baser related ships ya wil fall behind first raid of new cicle.... And yes i hate upgrades as wel.. and the days of repeat same targets over and over..

    That said , and like we all have an real life out of the game i have to say the pay out from the targets are just way to low. 
    If ya have top fleet X1 you should be able finish a raid by hitting targets and coin repairs in 4-6 hours.
    The way raids are setup lately you gonna need 3 times the ammount of that time what is in my opinion way to much time to spend.
    or have to higher pay outs or get writ of the limited bp`s again and stay the prize the same.
    There was a time when done raids in a few hours you started hitting bases for half repair. 
    And than i dont even mind i die in some bases like it is now ...

    now i can go on and on but i think you get the point :smile:

    "Treat people how you like to be Treat"
  • Yimmi930
    Yimmi930
    Greenhorn
    Joined Feb 2014 Posts: 25
    I don't think anyone likes upgrades, but just like Junkyard said, plan your stuff a little bit and you can get decently far coin free. The issue that I see is that upgrades are needed to get repairs to where we as players want them to be vs where the bean counters want us to be.

    Stock up 2 weeks of fm tokens before the raid with the new ship.
    Bust out the points for the new ship ASAP and get a blank shell building.
    Use the tokens to speed through them and just let the final few hours wrap up.
    Once you are out of build tokens grab a few kits and start going on upgrades.

    The goal to the current economy is using as much of your time upgrading instead of building. Use the fm and campaign tokens to build your ships and slow upgrade.
  • Jc Wilson
    Jc Wilson
    Greenhorn
    Joined Mar 2019 Posts: 6
    anyone else notice the gladius upgrades sold for powder keg ? u3 for 299 coins or x1 for around 40 bucks...if ya bought the coin pkg for the event ya probably didnt want to spend another 40 bucks for x1 ,so ya probably used 299 coins to get u3.then the next day x1 was around 20 bucks, i for one would have spent another 20 bucks and save the coins. kixie response was at the start of an event the upgrades are more imporant (so we can get more money for them) as the event goes on the importance is lessened so we adjust the prices (so we can still make some money).. .i'm thinking bad business ,but no one asked me ..... just saying    for a friend
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