Cm_Chris, gating question

  • jm1978
    jm1978
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2017 Posts: 706

    @MechDog2395 said:
    CM Chris said:

    If it helps, think of a fantasy RPG - at the beginning of the game I have level 1 armor, and I work hard and get level 2 armor, then level 3. A lot farther down the road, I get level 10 armor. I'm not mad that my level 3 armor isn't as useful to me anymore, even though I worked hard and spent a lot of time to get it. I understand that the challenge and reward of obtaining level 3 armor allowed me to tackle the challenge of getting level 4 armor. Then, having level 4 armor helped me to get to level 5 armor.

    Similar to that example, this is not a game in which you get to the end-game and every piece of tech or hull you ever owned is useful to you for end-game content. If that is your expectation, you're going to be frustrated when it continues to not be reality.

    I'm a lover of fantasy and I spent years playing D&D.

    If I can steal that analogy, maybe then YOU can understand what it is like for some of us on the other side of the trench.

    You get level 1 armor. Great. You go into the cave and fight goblins with it, only to find that they have weapons that bypass level 1 armor. So you grind and fight to be able to afford level 2 armor from "Tim the Wizard's Magic Store". You get the armor and head off into the cave to show those nasty goblins who's the boss. Except, they're not goblins anymore. Magically, overnight, the goblins have transformed into ogres, and guess what? Their weapons bypass level 2 armor. So you beat down on the ogres and say "You know what? I'm going to save my coins and buy me an "Ogre slaying sword!". You get the sword, run into  the cave of ogres, except the ogres now have magic resistance, so your "ogre slaying sword" is now also useless...

    By now, if this was an actual D&D game, the Dungeon Master would be pummeled to death with players throwing their dice at him in frustration.

    Priceless :) lol

  • Kaisa01
    Kaisa01
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Jul 2015 Posts: 224

    CM Chris said:

    It comes down to Xeno usability in PvP situations. While Xeno's usability was designed for NPC targets, PvP is still considered as part of the whole. We want to make sure there's uses for it in that context.

    When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+). If we had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on bases over the gating cap (level 60). So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets. 

    From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).

    So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.

    TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.


    Dear CM Chris ^^

    Every players who flies with a mk5/6 punisher fleet has barely made a finger crooked.

    They have used coins and not just a little.

    Which is also their good right.

    But the one with a lvl 80+ xeno fleet an lvl 45 base or lvl 55+fleet attack seems to me somewhat paradox, 
    as the xeno class usually only for the alien events thought and not for pvp so is it totally futile 80+ xeno fleet on lvl 45 bases
    or lvl 55+ feets to rush where is the callenge ?
  • John Jones22
    John Jones22
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2015 Posts: 3,291

    @CM Chris said:
    It comes down to Xeno usability in PvP situations. While Xeno's usability was designed for NPC targets, PvP is still considered as part of the whole. We want to make sure there's uses for it in that context.

    When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+). If we had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on bases over the gating cap (level 60). So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets. 

    From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).

    So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.

    TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.

    Basically Chris is saying, yes xeno is crazy OP. Yes it is unfair. But hey, got to sell the coin delas for xeno tech. No reason you cant keep fleet gating at 60. To keep a fleet under 55 you cant use a full fleet of vega, vsec, or dc. Lame.

  • Kaisa01
    Kaisa01
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Jul 2015 Posts: 224
    if one from lvl 50 base free and fleets from lvl 65 then the clearance is far more pleasant.

    with a good hellfire or vigi fleet you can keep a punisher fleet at a distance and if you can 
    even cause serious damage.

    but in any case you can not win.

    i hope kix finds there a just solution, which is the least what can make. 

    if the pvp ratio is not in balance makes pvp also no fun and that is not in
    their opinion.
  • Gary P
    Gary P
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Oct 2016 Posts: 1,219

    I really do think that Kixeye thinks we players are stupid and haven't a clue, amount of people complaining about gating for the right reasons just gets swept under the carpet and we get answered 'working as intended'. I tell you what the answer is above everything else.....coins!

  • Warren Mutscher
    Warren Mutscher
    Potential Threat
    Joined Sep 2015 Posts: 32
    Like I been saying for a LONG TIME You really want to fix Bases getting eaten up Esp. by new Xeno...MAKE MINES INVISIBLE and hitting one blows any ship up.(maybe have higher upgrades on them) also maybe give us 2 more mines
  • pax.rebellion
    pax.rebellion
    Potential Threat
    Joined Sep 2014 Posts: 80
    edited 3 May 2017, 1:28AM
    the last Civil war , my 48 base was 100% by a 79 xeno fleet ( it wasn't auto but it was super simple attack ).... Which made me decide not to do CW as i had a 24 hour bubble and my Command Center needed 20 hours repair ,,,,, It's turned into "what's the point " ?
    the 79 xeno fleet  hit everyone everyone in my alliance with base over 45 ,,,,We actually laughed about all the coins  "they" spent from the damage "they" took , the Domination into the mines was a high light :) 
  • Spask Crondusk
    Spask Crondusk
    Master Tactician
    Joined Aug 2015 Posts: 2,289
    have all bases get a cool down system to delay the base being attack for 20 sectors until its open again but if the base is too heavily damage then a bubble from the standard time.
  • Curtis Butler
    Curtis Butler
    Potential Threat
    Joined Jan 2012 Posts: 42


    CM Chris said:






    Are there any plans to sort this mess out or do we simply have to put up with it and watch the game deteriorate further as more and more tech is added to the game






    Regarding the XP values, as we've stated already in the April WIP we are re-tuning those to be a more accurate reflection of fleet power.

    Regarding older tech you have no longer being useful...this is a game of progression. If you have reached the Tier 6 stage of the game, then you should largely only be building Tier 6 tech. You've passed the point in which Tier 4 tech would still be relevant to the level at which you're competing. Do you know for whom Tier 4 tech is useful? People who were just at Tier 3. 

    If it helps, think of a fantasy RPG - at the beginning of the game I have level 1 armor, and I work hard and get level 2 armor, then level 3. A lot farther down the road, I get level 10 armor. I'm not mad that my level 3 armor isn't as useful to me anymore, even though I worked hard and spent a lot of time to get it. I understand that the challenge and reward of obtaining level 3 armor allowed me to tackle the challenge of getting level 4 armor. Then, having level 4 armor helped me to get to level 5 armor.

    Similar to that example, this is not a game in which you get to the end-game and every piece of tech or hull you ever owned is useful to you for end-game content. If that is your expectation, you're going to be frustrated when it continues to not be reality.

    If, however, your concern is truly only that it's a poor experience for early and mid-level players, then the XP re-tunings should help take care of that in some part. And something more constructive to advocate for would be making all content up through T5 more accessible, so that early players can make their progression up to end-game faster. That is something that - I'm more than happy to inform you - is certainly on our list of things to do.



    @CM Chris, For your fantasy RPG game comparison the fact that you have the tier 6 in your game hitting tier 4 tech is truly unbalanced. The gate in most RPG's is -/+ 5 to 10 levels (with WoW  being the exception, and even then if you kill a player 10 levels below you, you get no points for the kill).

     Attempting to get the needed tech to get to the next tier is difficult with the power creep and players intentionally down grading the builds on xeno tech to simply farm tier 4 and 5 fleets. Add the level 45 base gate cap and it gets even worse when a xeno fleet can clean out lower players res in seconds. Especially when they are trying to build their first fleet of punishers. 
     I understand there is no real and easy fix to the xeno tier fvf and fvb issue but for most who are getting stagnated because their bases are getting hammered by xeno fleets it becomes an unplayable game. even with coins it is still unplayable.
     This is why you are seeing players leave and will continue to see them leave. Yes you will have those hare headed players like me out there who are going to continue to farm with our old tech to build t6 fleets but we are becoming fewer and fewe
  • Spask Crondusk
    Spask Crondusk
    Master Tactician
    Joined Aug 2015 Posts: 2,289

    A new 6 second tier will counter the xeno division and keep balance in the game but yeah the stats are Jack up and need to be adjusted

  • capitaincaverne
    capitaincaverne
    Greenhorn
    Joined Sep 2016 Posts: 2

    CM Chris said:

    From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).


    So, to make it simple, whatever your fail in the Vega game management,
    your prioritary objective is to feed your coiners with our fleets.
    This is a very short term vision.

    You acknowledge there is a problem (first sentence in citation above). Good beginning. And then, the very (and only) interesting part : how do you solve the problem ? You do not solve it.
    Just play with it.
    Good luck guys.
  • LTBloodshed
    LTBloodshed
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Jun 2015 Posts: 1,525

    make gating 50

    farming is stupid. eliminate troll fleets and thats all. open pvp fun, farming stupid

  • LTBloodshed
    LTBloodshed
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Jun 2015 Posts: 1,525

    @CM Chris said:
    It comes down to Xeno usability in PvP situations. While Xeno's usability was designed for NPC targets, PvP is still considered as part of the whole. We want to make sure there's uses for it in that context.

    When we re-tuned Fleet XP on Xeno ships, it bumped most fleets with Xeno content in them over level 60 (a full fleet of Xeno-only ships lands around 70+). If we had released this re-tune with the gating rules as they were at the time, players who had the latest Xeno content would pretty much only be able to use them on bases over the gating cap (level 60). So how many of those bases exist? Well, none. Additionally, when we looked at our total population, only a handful of players had/have bases over level 50. So the reality was very restricting. If you had the latest Xeno content you couldn't use it on any player base whatsoever, and very few fleets. 

    From a design standpoint, there's a real problem with that situation. Xeno content takes a lot of effort to acquire, it also takes a good chunk of time to build. NPC content is a big part of the game, definitely, but most people love PvP and for those who put in the effort to acquire the latest content to then have zero other places between Alien activities in which to use that brand new tech - that would kind of suck (and believe me, back when we originally upped the gating level, we heard exactly how much those players thought it sucked). It's not a great reward experience for what someone just worked hard to obtain and build. They should be able to use it right away in lots of situations. So we needed to loosen those restrictions if we were going to also jack up Xeno's XP value (which was viewed as essential).

    So while we recognized that full Xeno-fleets were going to be more powerful than bases could handle currently, we had to make that change. It corrected the reward value issue, and committing to getting bases a few power boosts in the near future requires less resources than forfeiting the Xeno season to overhaul PvP entirely.

    TL;DR we'll be taking steps to even the playing field - but in the meantime we'd prefer to default to more PvP options rather than fewer.

    level the field?

    this wasnt hard. just SLOW DOWN and stop power creep

    might as well stop buying xeno deals bc the faction will be obsolete in 2-3 months with tier7

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