Has there been any consideration to significantly lowering
build and refitting times? I see repair
times coming down a little (depending on builds), and I have heard that some
initial build times would be lowered, but neither of these in enough capacity
to overcome what I see as a major deterrent for new and old players alike.
Actually yes. If you read the last paragraph of my grand rebalance part 3 thread (you can find it in updates archive), you'll notice that build times are being looked at across the board.
While i respect the fact that One of the CEO's of Kixeye decided to address the reasons why they are doing this change, so here is my two cents about the post
What is the point of this change?
To find the reason for the changes we have to go back in time, to when VC was first created. When KIXEYE first imagined VC it was as a space themed version of a PC game we had previously created called Battle Pirates. It’s not in our DNA to simply clone games, even one of our own, so we purpose built VC from the ground up as a true PC space game. In the process creating a bunch of new features such as combat strafing, hull classes, weapon arcs, planets, moving PvE fleets, interception, wormholes, shields, mines, asteroids and factions. As is often the case when creating new things, some of them work well, some… not so well. We’ll come back to the not-so-well bit in a minute.
Okay, and the current system you have achieved that. Players that have been here a year plus see no reason to change it, Myself included.
At the same
time as we were launching VC on PC, games were exploding onto a
different device entirely: the phone. As VC was our latest and greatest
game we decided to create a mobile version of it as our first proper
excursion onto the mobile platform. We also decided that the mobile
version of VC was not going to be a different game, dumbed down for
mobile players, it was (and is) the exact same game as the PC version.
Mobile players coexisting and competing with PC players in the same
universe. Which is pretty cool and, as far as I’m aware, unique among
realtime MMO games.
Okay, stop. First you just contradicted yourself right there with "we decided to create a mobile version of it as our first proper excursion onto the mobile platform." With "We also decided that the mobile version
of VC was not going to be a different game, dumbed down for mobile
players, it was (and is) the exact same game as the PC version"Just thought you should know, and yes mobile gaming is booming currently with technology increasing, making it easier to have big games on a mobile device, to have a community with both mobile and PC gamers in one is pretty cool, However this is irrelevant to the case at hand so lets skip this shall we?
Mobile has since gone on to become the largest platform for VC. However, designing and supporting an identical game across platforms that are so different in size, power and accessibility is not without its tradeoffs. Some aspects of the original PC game work well on mobile, some not so much.
And this is where we catch up to today, or rather five months ago, when KIXEYE started to put some serious thought into addressing the areas of VC that were not working well.
To you, the long time players, the game feels good as it is. It doesn’t feel broken or badly out of shape. You like playing the game - if you didn’t you wouldn’t have continued playing it month after month. And yet here am I saying it needs fixing. Well... we’re both right. As it turns out, you guys (and gals) are pretty unique. Out of the millions of people who have played VC, it really connected with a small, select subgroup of those people (you) who really enjoyed playing VC day after day, month after month. The majority of people didn’t find what they were looking for in VC and simply stopped playing. For those people, VC failed. It failed to be fun. It failed to be engaging day after day.
What your basically implying is "Okay PC players had there time now its time for Mobile players, this re-balance will be perfect for them! We will have Iron Star Company Events then once all thats done we will announce the re-balance, making those players who didnt get the ISC Ships at the time now wish they did because it turned out they were worth getting for the future changes, Also lets have the Frejya have the same field as Valhalla, making Valhalla completely useless. And people will love the new carrier! It can combat the popular Ragnorok and Has the Health to make it useful! Now lets have all ships in there respective class have the same base stats! Eagle loses its strafe advantage, Zeal loses it rotation advantage, Freyja loses its speed advantage, And for Dread and fury lets Make them have less mass and Vigilante with the most mass possible because we are aiming to make things as even and balanced as possible."
For all of those who have put there time and effort into getting a dread/rag fleet... I feel sorry for you.
For all of those who have put the time and effort into gettign Zeal/rag fleet, congratz you benefit form this! (which is only a small % of players)
And for all of those who have put there time and effort into Getting Vigilante from a terrible event. Well i bet you are just singing arent you. >:(
For everyone (myself included with a few ships) who thought the ISC Ships was crap, im sure ur kicking yourself now arent you. Wishing you knew this before hand so you were prepared for the future.
And there lies the catch-22. Some of the aspects of the game that appeal to the current player base are the exact same aspects that frustrate or overload new players. To improve the experience for new players, and to grow VC, we have to alter the game to make it more attractive to new players. Sometimes, after considering all other options, this includes altering the game in a way that frustrates the current player base.
We do not want you thinking that you are not important to us. Long time players are the lifeblood of the game. In many ways you are the game. However for VC to grow and entertain a new generation of players it must change and adapt. Ultimately we feel the result is worth the effort.
Paul Preece
Founder, KIXEYE
Bullshit! If we are so important then why aren't you listening to us!? Ever since we said we are against the re-balance (specifically the final part) We have been trying our hardest to say dont do it, Hell M16 made 2 Hitler memes basically explaining the problem with it! If long time players are the lifeblood of the game then why the hell are you going with a change that is making most of them leave? And if i was a new player that had no money and just started playing the game lets say, a week ago, And I see How much tech i need to farm for with terrible blueprint drop rates, some blueprints are still useless even with the update (Im looking at you Creeper turret! Why does that exist?) I would be so overwhelmed at the amount of stuff i have to catch up with that i probably wont play this game until i have a job to actually help me a little or not even play it period. NO ONE Wants to spend 10-12 hours on their computer day after day to farm for the Blueprint that they might not even get because there are so many parts for them and other blueprints are it that teir that aren't needed. People are tired of farming period! Sure its okay when you finished the VEGA teirs, but when you notice you need to farm for Event (both old and new) blueprints and VSec, you can tell people are gona get salty.
Who in the dev team came up with this? They should be fired/stabbed/[Insert terrible thing here]:
That would be me. As a huge fan of VC I want to see the game reach the highs I know it can. I returned to the game as Creative Director back in August, and while the current situation is definitely a low point, the features the team are currently working on are some of the most exciting I’ve seen in any of our games.
You’re removing the ships individuality/variety:
We’re putting together another post to address this in more detail and with more data.
1. Okay I will wait for that post then.
2. Please tell me you only work on Kixeye games...
You’re dumbing down the game, I like complexity.
The game is getting more simple with regards to ship speeds, that is true. However there are different kinds of complexity. Speed is a very important stat. So important that it can override nearly all other stats except for Range. When that happens the game actually loses a ton of complexity, as the number of meaningful combat stats drops from many to few. Bringing more consistency to hull speeds should return more complexity than it takes as the number of meaningful stats increases. Over time, we expect more hull classes to become useful to more players.
You completely missed the entire point players have been saying with this. Its not just speed, Zeal loses its rotation advantage, Eagle loses its strafing Advantage. Basically all ships that had a unique stat that made them good is now nonexistent. When i got the eagle I planned to build them after i finished some other builds, its basically on the back burner waiting its turn. Now i have ZERO plans on making that ship because it lost a bonus it made it nice. Most people use frigates to kite there enemies, Eagle made that more effective compared to Night Hawk while night hawk can run away if things arent in the players favor. Speed is important in events yes, but in pvp its not so important. Destroyer Lances and quick rotation battleships, fleets with Valkyrie and Freyja in pvp prove that. And the hull classes will still not become more useful in time because they are dwarfed by there counterpart. I still dont plan to use talon, I really dont plan on using fury now, Im ahppy i didnt spend the tiem to farm dread, Eagle, Zeal, Apoc/Rapture, Lance, and a few other ships dwarfed by the ISC ships now thanks to there large mass. HELL Even machete when it gets a shield bonus will be better than lance! And lance is #1 thanks to its strafing ability compared to scythe and trident. This update kills more than you think, but we will have to wait and see wont we.
You’re only doing this for the money:
This specific set of changes will most likely lose us money in the short term. We know we’ve lost the confidence of players by moving the goalposts and it will take time to rebuild it. None of the changes are designed to make money, they are designed to improve the accessibility of the game by better defining the meta.
So in a nutshell you will accept that players that have been here a wile will leave or stop spending money on this game, and those who are new and don't know what the hell happened will spend money thinking that nothing major has changed and become the new major players because I grantee in a month this post will be gone and they wont have a clue on what major change has happened. **** move man, **** move.
How can I feel safe investing time/money into the game when you can just change everything in a heartbeat?
We decided the best approach was to get all the disruptive changes out in one go. To just rip the band-aid off. More disruptive in the short term but it sets us up to be more consistent in the longer term. One of our key goals for the future is to increase the longevity of ship builds across all classes. It is vital to the health of the game that ships have long, useful lives.
Okay lets break this one down;
"We decided the best approach was to get
all the disruptive changes out in one go. To just rip the band-aid off.
More disruptive in the short term but it sets us up to be more
consistent in the longer term."
Whelp, you ripped the ban-aid off and opened a pretty major wound, congrats.
One of our key goals for the future is to increase the longevity of ship builds across all classes.
Fury, Talon, Destiny, Exo, Trident, Valhalla, soon Eagle, Zeal, Rapture, Dread, Lance (if Machete has shield bonus when upgraded), and Corinthian Will be pretty pointless. People will be forced to use them anyway because they dont have the ISC ships yet which an only be gotten by events that can range from easy, but if you screw up it hurts (Conspiracy rewarded good pilots that know how to do the 60) to why the hell is it so hard to kill a 50? (warfront was a train wreck)
Regardless what you do some ships will still be useless and barely or never used period, its just a fact.
It is vital to the health of the game that ships have long, useful lives.
Yes and no.
Yes because the few last teir ships, like Zeal and Dread, have long lives. The range is great and there are so many good builds for them, People STILL use Revs and for small skirmishes Venom, Night Hawk, and eagle is used. VENOM! People still use this battleship because its a great ship even when you have the new tech. Its still nice to use for farming VEGA and Vsec because it gets the job done.
No because This game has survived with people stopping and eventually ignoring Night Hawk, Venom, Fury, Destiny, even Apoc (havent touched that fleet in months), and a few other ships because they move on to bigger things. Using these ships as a last resort or not at all. Venom does the same job fury does well so no point in fury, destiny lacks the slots needed to be good, and night hawk cant be successful because they pop too easily.
There is my opinion on what i think about this post so far. Normally i would sit back and watch the fire works but this has gotten too out of hand.
What I'd really be interested in hearing about would any plans to restore some of the variety lost by the planned normalisation. This is especially important for ships like the Destiny that don't fit nicely in the new system due the weapon/special slots they sacrifice by design for their previous niche (kiting and killing low level fleets).
There are certainly plans to address this.
I don't like making promises, but I will share with you a small glimpse into a WIP feature:
@cm lxc , so because you guys won't answer my emails, where do I send the subpoena? Australian office or US? Because in US, my lawyer tells me this is an "Easy bait and switch lawsuit". You sold us **** knowing you were going to kill them once the sales were done. Your boss even said so in the answers.
Our legal team is in the US. I am curious as to where you were sending your emails though.
icarusbreak said:
So when does the letter come out that actually addresses our concerns as players?
If you have a concern I didn't address make it here. I can only promise you an answer, I cannot promise you'll like it.
UltimateGoliath said:
LXC , what Paul is saying about complexity makes no sense! If you were going for diversity wouldn't you give every ship it's own speed? Just my thought...
Diversity != complexity, which is what Paul is trying to say. By eliminating the difference between the base speed of hulls, things like the fitout and mark become more important. With more stats meaningfully contributing to the outcome of the battle, instead of just speed, you get greater control over the battle.
Is there anyway you can speak in examples instead of generalities.
For instance:
We observed in the meta that the issue of cutters running; carriers and dreads barely ever took damage; isc ships never got use.
We play tested xyz and this is what we saw. From our perspective it offered the player base a more rounded and immersive gameplay experience because a, b, and c.
Players who are frustrated by a ship they do not have access to running them down and killing them are not going to be impressed by ships with amazing levels of armor that they can't punch through slowly running them down and killing them. If a player leaves this game because entry-level equipment is not comparable to endgame equipment, then this is not a game that will ever appeal to them. Removing the uniqueness of each of these hulls is not the answer unless the ultimate goal is to "rebalance" everything. Will it also be considered unfair that a lvl 35 fleet doesn't have a prayer against my base?
I started playing relatively recently. Sure, it was not my favorite experience when an eagle would show up and wipe out my farming fleets. Believe me, if you managed to piss off Commander Data in sector 100, an eagle would show up to kill your farming fleets VERY often. Yet as others have mentioned, the goal was to come up with something that would be able to fight back. I had to work for it, though. This game has base and fleet levels, which implies some things are stronger than others. Your target audience needs to be people that understand such a system. If you try to appeal to other audiences, it can't be at the expense of your current audience. You will not get more customers from this decision, you will alienate your current base and not gain the new players you seek. What feedback did you get from players that quit vega conflict who actually DO play RPGs and MMOs? It sounds like you're trying to capture the interest of people who would also give World of Warcraft a try, only to quit when they realize how weak their character is at the start...
The calls for compensation in the form of free refits and piles of coins are not going to fix this, either. The coins will quickly be gone, the refits will be over, and we will have still lost the soul of this game. The proper way to rebalance is identify things that are truly OUT of balance, find outliers where you made mistakes and tweak settings. You don't change the entire game philosophy!
LXC , what Paul is saying about complexity makes no sense! If you were going for diversity wouldn't you give every ship it's own speed? Just my thought...
Diversity != complexity, which is what Paul is trying to say. By eliminating the difference between the base speed of hulls, things like the fitout and mark become more important. With more stats meaningfully contributing to the outcome of the battle, instead of just speed, you get greater control over the battle.
So by removing the speed difference (which makes ships DIVERSE and UNIQUE) you think you are making the ships of the same type more diverse???
I also do not see how nerfing the speed with give you greater control over the battle. All you are doing is retarding the game down to a point it will not be worthwhile to play. Might as well remove all of the Motor specials while you are at it, or is that for a future update??? Actually, now that i think on it, remove all specials from the game, that will make the game more DIVERSE and COMPLEX.
LXC , what Paul is saying about complexity makes no sense! If you were going for diversity wouldn't you give every ship it's own speed? Just my thought...
Diversity != complexity, which is what Paul is trying to say. By eliminating the difference between the base speed of hulls, things like the fitout and mark become more important. With more stats meaningfully contributing to the outcome of the battle, instead of just speed, you get greater control over the battle.
So by removing the speed difference (which makes ships DIVERSE and UNIQUE) you think you are making the ships of the same type more diverse???
I also do not see how nerfing the speed with give you greater control over the battle. All you are doing is retarding the game down to a point it will not be worthwhile to play. Might as well remove all of the Motor specials while you are at it, or is that for a future update??? Actually, now that i think on it, remove all specials from the game, that will make the game more DIVERSE and COMPLEX.
Kixeye Logic at its finest.
Sad thing is, removing all specials probably would make it more diverse..
For example, with FO V, there is no reason not to use energy weapons.
Paul, LXC, Scarlett: What are you guys doing? Ffs guys, stay away from the forums!
Don't you guys know? Forum outrage is like a tire fire, the only thing you can do is stay away and wait for it to go out by itself. Try to put it out and you'll just make it worse or get yourself burned.
I promised an explanation. I do not like to go back on my word. Besides there is enough anger at the lack of response on the previous thread.
Would you consider extending the free refit policy to all ships currently built instead of just the ones rendered completely inoperable? Many players will save time refitting and be able to play effectively sooner if you did.
I can answer this better than Paul can. I made this suggestion, but that's actually not possible, it isn't how the system works. We might have something else for you though.
LXC , what Paul is saying about complexity makes no sense! If you were going for diversity wouldn't you give every ship it's own speed? Just my thought...
Diversity != complexity, which is what Paul is trying to say. By eliminating the difference between the base speed of hulls, things like the fitout and mark become more important. With more stats meaningfully contributing to the outcome of the battle, instead of just speed, you get greater control over the battle.
Ok, so by your understanding diversity does not have
equality with complexity, with diversity holding a greater influence than
complexity by nature of possible combinations becoming overpowered. If I'm also
right thus far, by that notion the primary characteristic of note is speed
itself, and by the diversity presented through the series of hulls and mistakes
over time have lead it into a combination of hulls of which are able to compete
at the same rate of movement, if not faster, than ships of a different tier.
This update in that sense wishes to impact that, and inevitably normalize those
rates as to produce a more complex situation through the use of customization
to ships through direct combat rather than kiting. Correct me if I'm wrong.
What I'm seeking clarification for is the sense, of which
several people have already found, is that because specials are not touched
whatsoever, and the nature speed becomes irrelevant at higher levels of play,
at which individuals have the ability to simply Zerg rush. By which my
understanding, is actually less complex than any conventional battle tactics
are in use today, including cutters which use that principle but are less
armored. Secondly the natures of PvP disregarding speed become a series of
variables including range, minimal range, DPS, impact on target, stasis (speed
modification), accuracy, speed to target area, and AoE/margin of error. As this
stands none of these variables are touched as well, and are designed to work
within our current paradigm. Of which, energy based weapons have had the
greatest breakthroughs and were not designed for this level of range except for
the poleron. Even then, those were never used as much as the current energy
weapons which only have slightly less range, and or equal. Furthermore, with
notable exception, they don't miss. Explosive weapons now have the ability to
do damage through shield, incredible AoE, stasis effects, and can have tracking
abilities. The one weapon system truly neglected have been projectile weapons,
as fights have become of a point of either extreme or close range, with
explosive and energy weapons become a more adaptable and viable weapon system.
Regardless they have the ability to hit a target at speeds up to 4,000m/s which
is the speed of current energy weapons. Furthermore, the MK system applies bonuses
of a specialized nature.
My point is this. You have developed incredible weapon
systems of which incorporate speed and accuracy into regimented styles. With or
without some of the current changes they still become contenders for combat
within conventionally a 6km range. Over time these weapons have become dominant
through trial and error, one of which has become largely ignored except for
extreme range against a stationary target even though it has the ability to be
applicable in conventional combat. These nuances have become the cornerstone of
our combat system, of which there are numerous pre-existing counters. The only
fleets not in use were frigates due to poor decisions done years ago I'm still
pissed about, of which might be given life through hurricanes by ISC crafting.
All of this stated, with a primary fleet build of extreme
armor, middle tier to high end shields, higher tier thrusters, and highly
accurate weaponry all I can see is a slug fest. One of which a fleet with
higher DPS and extreme armor slugs it out until the other one dies to be
repaired rather than the chance to deal enough damage fast enough and escape
before it can do its own. In a sense, you are trading out positioning and
tactics to a match of what hulls have the capacity to damage the other the
fastest. Of which, it's determining features will be mass, which is further
indicated in value by its MK value.
If I am wrong in any of this, I would welcome a
newer perspective. Even if that means that while correct, there is a concept I
am not aware of. So simply, what control over the battle are you speaking of? **edit:typoes ****I would sincerely appreciate an answer to this question.
I don't like making promises, but I will share with you a small glimpse into a WIP feature:
Hull specific equipment.
I'm trying not to be too much of a smartass because it just shuts down the conversation, but i can't resist. Is this WIP feature going in the queue behind such other features as the rest of the alliance features (what were they called, sister alliances?) and being able to attack the resource depots on planets, or will it be another delay on those?
Also, hull-specific equipment is a nightmare of an addition. The equipment will either be disregarded in favor of standard equipment, or becomes the focal point for all ship fits. In the former, the equipment is a waste of dev time and in the latter, you strip away even more diversity as the idea of customizing a build will go the way of ship speed and we won't even remember why we have equipment slots.
I promised an explanation. I do not like to go back on my word. Besides there is enough anger at the lack of response on the previous thread.
then answer some questioned we just posted i mean wow
Cut him some slack, he can only respond so fast. So far he is the only one responding.
Yep. Add into that the need of being polite yet actually answering a question in hopefully a concise manner. That takes time and practice. Particularly due to the fact that one needs to be even more aware of the possibility of picking part conversations into rebuttals in a hostile environment.
Diversity != complexity, which is what Paul is trying to say. By eliminating the difference between the base speed of hulls, things like the fitout and mark become more important. With more stats meaningfully contributing to the outcome of the battle, instead of just speed, you get greater control over the battle.
I disagree completely lex. Without speed we will eat it during events. If speed was the end all be all then cutters would beat everything and yet they get crushed by cruisers. People bought and built high end ships for speed that was then stolen from them. Without speed kix ensures everyone will eat lots of damage so that anytime u battle u are ensured to lose. The game will just be smash smash battles with little skill. Hell, if you are fighting the same class of ship you might as well just auto. Carriers will be absolute trash cause with no speed the enemy will just run away and you either leave your carrier behind and die or chase and never catch them cause you have to go as slow as your carrier. You do hit the nail on the head when you said it will make crafting even more important. At is the real reason for the rebalance, greed. Kix can sell more craft crap with no promises they wont just nerf it in a few months.
Cut him some slack, he can only respond so fast. So far he is the only one responding.
i did.. i threw no insults, kept them short and concise, and cut the sarcastic cutting remarks i oh so want to make..
but ive been asking the same ones for almost a week on/off.
-he picks and chooses what he wants to respond to easy ones that reveal no real info of substance
i bet i could literally offer to paypal him money to answer simple questions i and others have asked and he'd still ignore them
Denizen of the Night said:
Anyone know when battle vortex launches? I have a compelling need to hear from the man himself.
to hear him answer pre screened questions, with scripted responses? no hard questions will be asked,
he will be a politician answering without answering.
At this point, it's election time and either they tell us what their plan is and why and what they know about how it affects us or we will vote for any of the 20,000 other game choices we have.
There's no reason for secrecy at this point. They need to show either that they are responsive to there community or they will keep having AMU stagnation or deterioration.
Remember when George Lucas said he was making the prequels for the "next generation" and basically **** the old fans that made him billions? Yeah, this is just like that. Those prequels were really something to be known for too...
So Kixeye what you are telling me is that ship classes having different speeds it to complex for noobs and for you guys for some reason. Cause noobs arent noobs anymore when they get ships with new speeds cause they have to work for them and by then they will understand the tech cause all rebel ship classes go the same speed. They Destiny will be thier first bp ship and if they don't know it goes faster than thier exodus/revs then why punish everyone else for thier ignorance. Honestly,show them how to use the ship info button and this "complexity" of ship speeds is solved.Pretty sad how u admitted you will loose money from this cause your long term players who pay more then the "elite rancore starter pack" a week will stop paying or leave you guys. You guys only see one side of things, ships are no longer worth getting to me anymore....still debating on wether to quit or not...But i am done paying for you to change what i buy
@Mr TopGear said:
"Mobile has since gone on to become the largest platform for VC."
The reason VC has gone on to become the largest platform for VC is because the mobile market is a larger market than PC. Coupled with the decline of unity support across all major web browsers. This does not however say that VC is a better gaming experience on mobile than PC, simply more people use mobile over PC.
"We also decided that the mobile version of VC was not going to be a different game, dumbed down for mobile players, it was (and is) the exact same game as the PC version"
This is through dumbing down the game in an attempt to keep the experience across all devices the same. Cleary it is harder to fly ships on a mobile device than on a PC and as a result good flying and skill has been eroded from the game and been turned into a blitz battle of 2 players just shooting against each other both taking large amounts of damage which has the knock on effect of potentially generating more revenue for you.
"To you, the long time players, the game feels good as it is. It doesn’t feel broken or badly out of shape."
Yes, it does feel broken. There are many areas that we have been asking to be fixed for months/years. I am sure LXC can provide you with a list of things we have asked to be fixed or implemented in to the game. We simply have no choice but to lump it.
"And there lies the catch-22. Some of the aspects of the game that appeal to the current player base are the exact same aspects that frustrate or overload new players"
I would love to see some market research that you did on this. I can't remember doing any surveys and I never heard anyone else doing one either
"We do not want you thinking that you are not important to us. Long time players are the lifeblood of the game. In many ways you are the game. However, for VC to grow and entertain a new generation of players it must change and adapt."
We do not think we are not important. We know we are not important by your responses to us, either on the forums or your customer support throwing auto response templates at us or giving us the standing joke of vega support to reboot our modems, when half the sector just dropped from the server and we just got 18 hours of repair time dropping from a battle. Or telling the guys on £2000 computers that their specifications are too low to play VC on pc
"The game is getting more simple with regards to ship speeds, that is true. However there are different kinds of complexity. Speed is a very important stat. So important that it can override nearly all other stats except for Range. When that happens the game actually loses a ton of complexity, as the number of meaningful combat stats drops from many to few. Bringing more consistency to hull speeds should return more complexity than it takes as the number of meaningful stats increases. Over time, we expect more hull classes to become useful to more players."
Why over time? Why can you not simply wait until you finish making the game before you piecemeal push incremental updates on us and force us to waste our time. By standardisng ship speeds you make it much easier to fly on mobiles, but you take so much variety and skill from the game you are not putting that back in anywhere
Now for some feedback, not relating to your Q&A
The game consists of 4 factions. Rebel, Vega, V-Sec and ISC. 3 of them were released on crafting with ISC held back. For several months you sold and advertised the V-Sec ships as the best in VC. Offering crafing packages to players. ISC ships were released with poor stats and were not very good. ISC ships have been altered to be the best in VC. Suddenly receiving ship buffs to make them the ship everyone will want. You will now try and sell us crafting packages for these ships and devalue all the ships we currently have. Clearly this is aimed at bringing in business so you have something to sell to us. Altering the goal posts considerably. Leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the VC community. You should have released 4 factions at the same time so we knew what the best was and aimed for it. We have zero trust in you guys now as we can aim for mk5 ISC ships only to find they are moved to second rate ships. First we saw it with raptures, then again with mk5 v-sec. Who is to say ISC mk 5 wont get the same treatment. What can we expect to see and how will players be compensated for this treatment?
With the change of ship speeds to be all the same within a class of ship i.e cruisers you are completely removing a part of the game many players love. You are also destroying the individuality of the ships and make many of them redundant. No one would ever want to build a destiny, and everyone will be making ISC ships. Nothing differentiates ships now other than mass and on occasion a few ship modifiers. How will you be addressing this major loss of appeal in VC?
We have seen a complete removal of "kiting" in the game, good flying in favor of energy based blitz battles with carriers. How are you planning on bringing and rewarding good flying back into VC? With the increase in fleet mass and the reworking of the repair time system. Repair times have gone up considerably. Even though you claim it not to be the case. It has. And by quite some margin. Are you planning on just pushing this update onto us and forcing us to pay more or can we expect to see a rework of the reworked system to bring the repair times down to acceptable levels
Also, from my viewpoint I would like to see ship speeds remain in vega as they are, adding skill and variety to the game. I am not thrilled about the other changes that are in this next update. The speed change is the main one that kills the game for me, and from what I have read many other people
Neil Partridge
no one important, Vega Conflict Player
In my opinion this guy probably knows more about your game balance than you do. We all value the ship calculator, and many of us will have used it on a daily basis. It's not just about maths though, and in creating this tool he has gained a holistic view of the whole game balance. Ignoring voices like this, and Manni's shows to me that you don't even really understand how your own game works. You're not going to achieve the things you think you will. You are fomenting a disaster, both for your revenue, and for the thousands of players that you're basically screwing. I think you have spent to much time with accountants, and frankly dubious business projections, that you have lost sight of how you could have a profitable game and a happy player community. Everything you need to know is in the thousands of comments written in this forum over hundreds of days. I am gutted at what you're doing to this game, that many of us have loved, and to the guys and gals we've all made as good friends, and good enemies. Wake up. Your analysis is just plain wrong.
Anyone know when battle vortex launches? I have a compelling need to hear from the man himself.
to hear him answer pre screened questions, with scripted responses? no hard questions will be asked,
he will be a politician answering without answering.
While this may be the case, communication not primarily verbal. Of which I learn a lot from politicians for the same reasons, but I digress. At the moment, conversation is the best way to get an answer and or insight into the reasons the situation is what it is. All I'm asking however, is when it launches.
All the newer ships (ISC hulls) specifically have more armor slots in lieu of weapons. That tells me kixeye wants players to use more armor and to spend more time with repairs and coins. That appears to be the direction kixeye is going. Now with the fleet mass increasing, this mean more ships in a fleet and more repairs. Unfortunately for kixeye, you have loss all credability. The impression I get is of an arrogant company that realizes the imminent demise of VC and is trying to milk every last cent out of its players.
We are told one of the major reason for the rebalance is to increase the longevity of the ships...... right..... Because making the speeds the same across all ships of a class the same.....and making one ship clearly superior to the rest of that class in mass.....makes the others useable for a longer period of time....... right......
How about just telling us the truth? Yeah, we will be pissed off about it. But we won't be as pissed off as you pretending we are too stupid to realize we are being lied to.
I've said this before on numerous occasions.
THE CUSTOMER IS THE LIFEBLOOD OF YOUR ORGANISATION.
You are turning your existing customers against you.
Newer customers never spend as much money as the loyal ones.
If you had catered to what the existing customers wanted, this backlash would have been miniscule in comparison to the current response.
You have, metaphorically speaking, given your company blood poisoning by making your customers very, very angry.
You have lost our confidence. We will vote with our feet. Destroying a solid customer base with uneducated decisions, insulting your customers with a particularly weak explanation of your decision, and all in favour of trying to find new customers is commercial suicide.
The main thing that stopped new customers becoming loyal customers in the past was the ridiculous repair, refit, and build times. We all know why they're so high, it's to make money.
Don't insult our intelligence by expecting us to believe we can't tell what you're doing with the original post in this thread.
If you wanted to make the game more attractive to new players, you could have just asked us. After all, we play this game every day. We pay your wages. We feed your kids. We fill your car with fuel. We would have welcomed your enquiries with open arms.
Running a business?
Meet my friend GENERAL CONSENSUS. If you listen to him, you get rich.
Ignore him at your peril.
@eaglescout316 said:
CM LXC said:
I don't like making promises, but I will share with you a small glimpse into a WIP feature:
Hull specific equipment.
I'm trying not to be too much of a smartass because it just shuts down the conversation, but i can't resist. Is this WIP feature going in the queue behind such other features as the rest of the alliance features (what were they called, sister alliances?) and being able to attack the resource depots on planets, or will it be another delay on those?
Also, hull-specific equipment is a nightmare of an addition. The equipment will either be disregarded in favor of standard equipment, or becomes the focal point for all ship fits. In the former, the equipment is a waste of dev time and in the latter, you strip away even more diversity as the idea of customizing a build will go the way of ship speed and we won't even remember why we have equipment slots.
Ok all this means ISC tech exclusive to ISC hulls, remember this armor hevy coin magnets are so porly designed they needed to devalew evry other hull in game to make them a crapy end game hulls, now they will get exclusive tech to make us do future events, this like my predecessor says is not helping diversity is the ISC coiner ships geting shuved more down our throats .
What I'd really be interested in hearing about would any plans to restore some of the variety lost by the planned normalisation. This is especially important for ships like the Destiny that don't fit nicely in the new system due the weapon/special slots they sacrifice by design for their previous niche (kiting and killing low level fleets).
There are certainly plans to address this.
I don't like making promises, but I will share with you a small glimpse into a WIP feature:
Hull specific equipment.
Let me guess, this will be more crap we have to farm just like the Mk farming won't it???
Hull specific equipment. So clearly it's going to be Frigate, Cruiser, Battleship, etc.. Probably see resistance armor in that feature. Now would we see faction specific variants as well? So vsec would be capable of using superior equipment when compared to vega an rebels? This would give players more incentives to use more advanced ships.
Okay, and the current system you have achieved that. Players that have been here a year plus see no reason to change it, Myself included.
Okay, stop. First you just contradicted yourself right there with "we decided to create a mobile version of it as our first proper excursion onto the mobile platform." With "We also decided that the mobile version of VC was not going to be a different game, dumbed down for mobile players, it was (and is) the exact same game as the PC version" Just thought you should know, and yes mobile gaming is booming currently with technology increasing, making it easier to have big games on a mobile device, to have a community with both mobile and PC gamers in one is pretty cool, However this is irrelevant to the case at hand so lets skip this shall we?
What your basically implying is "Okay PC players had there time now its time for Mobile players, this re-balance will be perfect for them! We will have Iron Star Company Events then once all thats done we will announce the re-balance, making those players who didnt get the ISC Ships at the time now wish they did because it turned out they were worth getting for the future changes, Also lets have the Frejya have the same field as Valhalla, making Valhalla completely useless. And people will love the new carrier! It can combat the popular Ragnorok and Has the Health to make it useful! Now lets have all ships in there respective class have the same base stats! Eagle loses its strafe advantage, Zeal loses it rotation advantage, Freyja loses its speed advantage, And for Dread and fury lets Make them have less mass and Vigilante with the most mass possible because we are aiming to make things as even and balanced as possible."
For all of those who have put there time and effort into getting a dread/rag fleet... I feel sorry for you.
For all of those who have put the time and effort into gettign Zeal/rag fleet, congratz you benefit form this! (which is only a small % of players)
And for all of those who have put there time and effort into Getting Vigilante from a terrible event. Well i bet you are just singing arent you. >:(
For everyone (myself included with a few ships) who thought the ISC Ships was crap, im sure ur kicking yourself now arent you. Wishing you knew this before hand so you were prepared for the future.
Bullshit! If we are so important then why aren't you listening to us!? Ever since we said we are against the re-balance (specifically the final part) We have been trying our hardest to say dont do it, Hell M16 made 2 Hitler memes basically explaining the problem with it! If long time players are the lifeblood of the game then why the hell are you going with a change that is making most of them leave? And if i was a new player that had no money and just started playing the game lets say, a week ago, And I see How much tech i need to farm for with terrible blueprint drop rates, some blueprints are still useless even with the update (Im looking at you Creeper turret! Why does that exist?) I would be so overwhelmed at the amount of stuff i have to catch up with that i probably wont play this game until i have a job to actually help me a little or not even play it period. NO ONE Wants to spend 10-12 hours on their computer day after day to farm for the Blueprint that they might not even get because there are so many parts for them and other blueprints are it that teir that aren't needed. People are tired of farming period! Sure its okay when you finished the VEGA teirs, but when you notice you need to farm for Event (both old and new) blueprints and VSec, you can tell people are gona get salty.
1. Okay I will wait for that post then.
2. Please tell me you only work on Kixeye games...
You completely missed the entire point players have been saying with this. Its not just speed, Zeal loses its rotation advantage, Eagle loses its strafing Advantage. Basically all ships that had a unique stat that made them good is now nonexistent. When i got the eagle I planned to build them after i finished some other builds, its basically on the back burner waiting its turn. Now i have ZERO plans on making that ship because it lost a bonus it made it nice. Most people use frigates to kite there enemies, Eagle made that more effective compared to Night Hawk while night hawk can run away if things arent in the players favor. Speed is important in events yes, but in pvp its not so important. Destroyer Lances and quick rotation battleships, fleets with Valkyrie and Freyja in pvp prove that. And the hull classes will still not become more useful in time because they are dwarfed by there counterpart. I still dont plan to use talon, I really dont plan on using fury now, Im ahppy i didnt spend the tiem to farm dread, Eagle, Zeal, Apoc/Rapture, Lance, and a few other ships dwarfed by the ISC ships now thanks to there large mass. HELL Even machete when it gets a shield bonus will be better than lance! And lance is #1 thanks to its strafing ability compared to scythe and trident. This update kills more than you think, but we will have to wait and see wont we.
So in a nutshell you will accept that players that have been here a wile will leave or stop spending money on this game, and those who are new and don't know what the hell happened will spend money thinking that nothing major has changed and become the new major players because I grantee in a month this post will be gone and they wont have a clue on what major change has happened. **** move man, **** move.
Okay lets break this one down;
"We decided the best approach was to get all the disruptive changes out in one go. To just rip the band-aid off. More disruptive in the short term but it sets us up to be more consistent in the longer term."
Whelp, you ripped the ban-aid off and opened a pretty major wound, congrats.
One of our key goals for the future is to increase the longevity of ship builds across all classes.
Fury, Talon, Destiny, Exo, Trident, Valhalla, soon Eagle, Zeal, Rapture, Dread, Lance (if Machete has shield bonus when upgraded), and Corinthian Will be pretty pointless. People will be forced to use them anyway because they dont have the ISC ships yet which an only be gotten by events that can range from easy, but if you screw up it hurts (Conspiracy rewarded good pilots that know how to do the 60) to why the hell is it so hard to kill a 50? (warfront was a train wreck)
Regardless what you do some ships will still be useless and barely or never used period, its just a fact.
It is vital to the health of the game that ships have long, useful lives.
Yes and no.
Yes because the few last teir ships, like Zeal and Dread, have long lives. The range is great and there are so many good builds for them, People STILL use Revs and for small skirmishes Venom, Night Hawk, and eagle is used. VENOM! People still use this battleship because its a great ship even when you have the new tech. Its still nice to use for farming VEGA and Vsec because it gets the job done.
No because This game has survived with people stopping and eventually ignoring Night Hawk, Venom, Fury, Destiny, even Apoc (havent touched that fleet in months), and a few other ships because they move on to bigger things. Using these ships as a last resort or not at all. Venom does the same job fury does well so no point in fury, destiny lacks the slots needed to be good, and night hawk cant be successful because they pop too easily.
There is my opinion on what i think about this post so far. Normally i would sit back and watch the fire works but this has gotten too out of hand.
-Arctic Wolf, 16
I don't like making promises, but I will share with you a small glimpse into a WIP feature:
Hull specific equipment.
Is there anyway you can speak in examples instead of generalities.
For instance:
We observed in the meta that the issue of cutters running; carriers and dreads barely ever took damage; isc ships never got use.
We play tested xyz and this is what we saw. From our perspective it offered the player base a more rounded and immersive gameplay experience because a, b, and c.
I started playing relatively recently. Sure, it was not my favorite experience when an eagle would show up and wipe out my farming fleets. Believe me, if you managed to piss off Commander Data in sector 100, an eagle would show up to kill your farming fleets VERY often. Yet as others have mentioned, the goal was to come up with something that would be able to fight back. I had to work for it, though. This game has base and fleet levels, which implies some things are stronger than others. Your target audience needs to be people that understand such a system. If you try to appeal to other audiences, it can't be at the expense of your current audience. You will not get more customers from this decision, you will alienate your current base and not gain the new players you seek. What feedback did you get from players that quit vega conflict who actually DO play RPGs and MMOs? It sounds like you're trying to capture the interest of people who would also give World of Warcraft a try, only to quit when they realize how weak their character is at the start...
The calls for compensation in the form of free refits and piles of coins are not going to fix this, either. The coins will quickly be gone, the refits will be over, and we will have still lost the soul of this game. The proper way to rebalance is identify things that are truly OUT of balance, find outliers where you made mistakes and tweak settings. You don't change the entire game philosophy!
So by removing the speed difference (which makes ships DIVERSE and UNIQUE) you think you are making the ships of the same type more diverse???
I also do not see how nerfing the speed with give you greater control over the battle. All you are doing is retarding the game down to a point it will not be worthwhile to play. Might as well remove all of the Motor specials while you are at it, or is that for a future update??? Actually, now that i think on it, remove all specials from the game, that will make the game more DIVERSE and COMPLEX.
Kixeye Logic at its finest.
Sad thing is, removing all specials probably would make it more diverse..
For example, with FO V, there is no reason not to use energy weapons.
Blinkyyvx, I'm feeling ignored too. Don't take it too personally.
Besides there is enough anger at the lack of response on the previous thread.
I can answer this better than Paul can. I made this suggestion, but that's actually not possible, it isn't how the system works. We might have something else for you though.
Ok, so by your understanding diversity does not have equality with complexity, with diversity holding a greater influence than complexity by nature of possible combinations becoming overpowered. If I'm also right thus far, by that notion the primary characteristic of note is speed itself, and by the diversity presented through the series of hulls and mistakes over time have lead it into a combination of hulls of which are able to compete at the same rate of movement, if not faster, than ships of a different tier. This update in that sense wishes to impact that, and inevitably normalize those rates as to produce a more complex situation through the use of customization to ships through direct combat rather than kiting. Correct me if I'm wrong.
What I'm seeking clarification for is the sense, of which several people have already found, is that because specials are not touched whatsoever, and the nature speed becomes irrelevant at higher levels of play, at which individuals have the ability to simply Zerg rush. By which my understanding, is actually less complex than any conventional battle tactics are in use today, including cutters which use that principle but are less armored. Secondly the natures of PvP disregarding speed become a series of variables including range, minimal range, DPS, impact on target, stasis (speed modification), accuracy, speed to target area, and AoE/margin of error. As this stands none of these variables are touched as well, and are designed to work within our current paradigm. Of which, energy based weapons have had the greatest breakthroughs and were not designed for this level of range except for the poleron. Even then, those were never used as much as the current energy weapons which only have slightly less range, and or equal. Furthermore, with notable exception, they don't miss. Explosive weapons now have the ability to do damage through shield, incredible AoE, stasis effects, and can have tracking abilities. The one weapon system truly neglected have been projectile weapons, as fights have become of a point of either extreme or close range, with explosive and energy weapons become a more adaptable and viable weapon system. Regardless they have the ability to hit a target at speeds up to 4,000m/s which is the speed of current energy weapons. Furthermore, the MK system applies bonuses of a specialized nature.
My point is this. You have developed incredible weapon systems of which incorporate speed and accuracy into regimented styles. With or without some of the current changes they still become contenders for combat within conventionally a 6km range. Over time these weapons have become dominant through trial and error, one of which has become largely ignored except for extreme range against a stationary target even though it has the ability to be applicable in conventional combat. These nuances have become the cornerstone of our combat system, of which there are numerous pre-existing counters. The only fleets not in use were frigates due to poor decisions done years ago I'm still pissed about, of which might be given life through hurricanes by ISC crafting.
All of this stated, with a primary fleet build of extreme armor, middle tier to high end shields, higher tier thrusters, and highly accurate weaponry all I can see is a slug fest. One of which a fleet with higher DPS and extreme armor slugs it out until the other one dies to be repaired rather than the chance to deal enough damage fast enough and escape before it can do its own. In a sense, you are trading out positioning and tactics to a match of what hulls have the capacity to damage the other the fastest. Of which, it's determining features will be mass, which is further indicated in value by its MK value.
If I am wrong in any of this, I would welcome a newer perspective. Even if that means that while correct, there is a concept I am not aware of. So simply, what control over the battle are you speaking of?**edit:typoes
****I would sincerely appreciate an answer to this question.
I'm trying not to be too much of a smartass because it just shuts down the conversation, but i can't resist. Is this WIP feature going in the queue behind such other features as the rest of the alliance features (what were they called, sister alliances?) and being able to attack the resource depots on planets, or will it be another delay on those?
Also, hull-specific equipment is a nightmare of an addition. The equipment will either be disregarded in favor of standard equipment, or becomes the focal point for all ship fits. In the former, the equipment is a waste of dev time and in the latter, you strip away even more diversity as the idea of customizing a build will go the way of ship speed and we won't even remember why we have equipment slots.
I disagree completely lex. Without speed we will eat it during events. If speed was the end all be all then cutters would beat everything and yet they get crushed by cruisers. People bought and built high end ships for speed that was then stolen from them. Without speed kix ensures everyone will eat lots of damage so that anytime u battle u are ensured to lose. The game will just be smash smash battles with little skill. Hell, if you are fighting the same class of ship you might as well just auto. Carriers will be absolute trash cause with no speed the enemy will just run away and you either leave your carrier behind and die or chase and never catch them cause you have to go as slow as your carrier. You do hit the nail on the head when you said it will make crafting even more important. At is the real reason for the rebalance, greed. Kix can sell more craft crap with no promises they wont just nerf it in a few months.
I> @blinkyyvx said:
At this point, it's election time and either they tell us what their plan is and why and what they know about how it affects us or we will vote for any of the 20,000 other game choices we have.
There's no reason for secrecy at this point. They need to show either that they are responsive to there community or they will keep having AMU stagnation or deterioration.
So Kixeye what you are telling me is that ship classes having different speeds it to complex for noobs and for you guys for some reason. Cause noobs arent noobs anymore when they get ships with new speeds cause they have to work for them and by then they will understand the tech cause all rebel ship classes go the same speed. They Destiny will be thier first bp ship and if they don't know it goes faster than thier exodus/revs then why punish everyone else for thier ignorance. Honestly,show them how to use the ship info button and this "complexity" of ship speeds is solved.Pretty sad how u admitted you will loose money from this cause your long term players who pay more then the "elite rancore starter pack" a week will stop paying or leave you guys. You guys only see one side of things, ships are no longer worth getting to me anymore....still debating on wether to quit or not...But i am done paying for you to change what i buy
In my opinion this guy probably knows more about your game balance than you do. We all value the ship calculator, and many of us will have used it on a daily basis. It's not just about maths though, and in creating this tool he has gained a holistic view of the whole game balance. Ignoring voices like this, and Manni's shows to me that you don't even really understand how your own game works. You're not going to achieve the things you think you will. You are fomenting a disaster, both for your revenue, and for the thousands of players that you're basically screwing. I think you have spent to much time with accountants, and frankly dubious business projections, that you have lost sight of how you could have a profitable game and a happy player community. Everything you need to know is in the thousands of comments written in this forum over hundreds of days. I am gutted at what you're doing to this game, that many of us have loved, and to the guys and gals we've all made as good friends, and good enemies. Wake up. Your analysis is just plain wrong.
All the newer ships (ISC hulls) specifically have more armor slots in lieu of weapons. That tells me kixeye wants players to use more armor and to spend more time with repairs and coins. That appears to be the direction kixeye is going. Now with the fleet mass increasing, this mean more ships in a fleet and more repairs. Unfortunately for kixeye, you have loss all credability. The impression I get is of an arrogant company that realizes the imminent demise of VC and is trying to milk every last cent out of its players.
Good luck with that.
How about just telling us the truth? Yeah, we will be pissed off about it. But we won't be as pissed off as you pretending we are too stupid to realize we are being lied to.
I've said this before on numerous occasions.
THE CUSTOMER IS THE LIFEBLOOD OF YOUR ORGANISATION.
You are turning your existing customers against you.
Newer customers never spend as much money as the loyal ones.
If you had catered to what the existing customers wanted, this backlash would have been miniscule in comparison to the current response.
You have, metaphorically speaking, given your company blood poisoning by making your customers very, very angry.
You have lost our confidence. We will vote with our feet. Destroying a solid customer base with uneducated decisions, insulting your customers with a particularly weak explanation of your decision, and all in favour of trying to find new customers is commercial suicide.
The main thing that stopped new customers becoming loyal customers in the past was the ridiculous repair, refit, and build times. We all know why they're so high, it's to make money.
Don't insult our intelligence by expecting us to believe we can't tell what you're doing with the original post in this thread.
If you wanted to make the game more attractive to new players, you could have just asked us. After all, we play this game every day. We pay your wages. We feed your kids. We fill your car with fuel. We would have welcomed your enquiries with open arms.
Running a business?
Meet my friend GENERAL CONSENSUS. If you listen to him, you get rich.
Ignore him at your peril.
History seems to be repeating itself.
Ok all this means ISC tech exclusive to ISC hulls, remember this armor hevy coin magnets are so porly designed they needed to devalew evry other hull in game to make them a crapy end game hulls, now they will get exclusive tech to make us do future events, this like my predecessor says is not helping diversity is the ISC coiner ships geting shuved more down our throats .
Let me guess, this will be more crap we have to farm just like the Mk farming won't it???
Hull specific equipment. So clearly it's going to be Frigate, Cruiser, Battleship, etc.. Probably see resistance armor in that feature. Now would we see faction specific variants as well? So vsec would be capable of using superior equipment when compared to vega an rebels? This would give players more incentives to use more advanced ships.