Problem with the way fleet level is calculated.

EQUINOX 600
EQUINOX 600
Strike-force Captain
Joined May 2012 Posts: 811

So today i was trying to make a very low level cargo fleet to try and prevent opportunist cargo fleet attackers so I took some old venoms striped them down and only put x2 cargo lvl 5 each ship has a level of 1 so I thought great it will make a fleet lvl of 6 however after putting 6 of the lvl 1 ships in a fleet the fleet level was 11. Now i know my maths is not great but when you take an item with a value of 1 and then times that value by 6 you get a total value of 6.

See pics bellow from 1 ship to 6 and see how the fleet level adds up with all ships all having an individual lvl of 1. 

Maybe its just me but I don't understand how 1x2=3 or 1x3=4 or 1x4=6 or 1x5=8 or 1x6=11

image

image

imageimage

image

image

       Those ships are silly the people would need to be the size of ants to use them.
  • KIXEYE CM CarterGee
    KIXEYE CM CarterGee
    Master Tactician
    Joined Sep 2013 Posts: 2,329

    Hey there!

    It's not a linear XP curve. It looks like an exponential increase if you graphed it out.

    - Carter
    Community Manager, Mobile Games
    VEGA Conflict, War Commander: Rogue Assault

    Twitter: CarterGee / VEGAConflict
  • Oliver1989
    Oliver1989
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 148
    You mean having more of the same thing increases the value of each? I expected the experience per level to be exponential (so you need more experience to grow from 30-31 than 20-21), but that would not explain what equinox observed. It would mean the exact opposite! 

  • Vahlic
    Vahlic
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 79
    Does each venom only have cargo5x2?  no armor, no weapons, so shields.    If they only have cargo5x2 then those images clearly indicate poor calculations. 

     ie assume an experience curve of 500 lvl 2,  1500 lvl 3, 4500 lvl 4,  13500 lvl 5.  lets pretend we have 6 ships that each provide 1000 exp each...   

    1 ship is lvl 2, 2 ships is lvl 3, 3 ships is lvl 3, 4 ships is lvl 3, 5 ships is lvl 4, and 6 ships is lvl 4.  

    so that is... 2,3,3,3,4,4  this fits with exponential curves...

    The following does not:

    The images above show level progression per ship as 1 ,3 ,4, 6, 8, 11.  This makes no sense at all if each ship is completely equal in build.  In an exponential increase in experience the linear increase in experience added with each additional ship would not even produce a lvl 6 fleet if it has an exponential experience curve.


    I am assuming that the ships in the images are not of equal build or the level would be somewhere in the realm of 4-8 not 11.  Especially with only 1 ship having a level of 1... that would make it at best probably under level 5 for the total fleet. 

  • EQUINOX 600
    EQUINOX 600
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined May 2012 Posts: 811
    Vahlic said:

    I am assuming that the ships in the images are not of equal build or the level would be somewhere in the realm of 4-8 not 11.  Especially with only 1 ship having a level of 1... that would make it at best probably under level 5 for the total fleet. 

    As stated all the ships are exactly the same load out venom with x2  lvl 5 cargo nothing else.

           Those ships are silly the people would need to be the size of ants to use them.
  • Vahlic
    Vahlic
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 79




    I have no idea why yours are showing those levels.  They are clearly broken and Kixeye needs to address it.  I used my ship build tool to ensure the mass of a venom with only cargo 5x2 is 950 each. and 6 of those would have a total mass of 5700 which is indicated in every image you have provided.  The rancors I provided images for have the expected level increments... 1, 1, 2 ,2, 3, 3.  


    My ship build tool can be found here if anyone wants to play with these:  https://www.kixeye.com/forum/discussion/384585/p1

  • EQUINOX 600
    EQUINOX 600
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined May 2012 Posts: 811

    See this is what I am saying the venoms do not make any sence because if a ranc with 2 x lvl 5 cargo is lvl 1 and 6 of them is a fleet of lvl 3 how can a vanom with 2 x lvl 5 cargo be lvl 1 and in a fleet of 6 be a fleet of 11

           Those ships are silly the people would need to be the size of ants to use them.
  • Vahlic
    Vahlic
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 79

    Maybe kixeye will look into this.  Maybe this is "working as intended"...

  • Malkill
    Malkill
    Potential Threat
    Joined Jul 2013 Posts: 59

    I am confused how my rancors can be level 35. pretty unlikely ill be killing many 30+ bases with them , unless, someones base is terrible and it really shouldn't be based on the way base level is calculated now.

  • Vahlic
    Vahlic
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 79

    Malkill said:

    I am confused how my rancors can be level 35. pretty unlikely ill be killing many 30+ bases with them , unless, someones base is terrible and it really shouldn't be based on the way base level is calculated now.

    This has absolutely nothing to do this topic.  They are 35 because of the tech they are outfitted with.  

  • GameHat
    GameHat
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Nov 2013 Posts: 361

    Why do you assume they would make each level linear? I mean both your own evidence and carter himself even directly explained, the worth of each ship is plotted exponentially.
    It's very simple math if you stop assuming there's no third value acting as an exponent.


    ... uh, incase you don't know what exponential is, it's the one that looks like this:

    image

    where for ever 1 on the x direction(number of ships in fleet), it can shoot up an increasing amount on the y direction(fleet level)

    3 chins, 3 teams, one victor;
  • MetalstormV
    MetalstormV
    Incursion Leader
    Joined May 2012 Posts: 1,359
    GameHat said:

    Why do you assume they would make each level linear? I mean both your own evidence and carter himself even directly explained, the worth of each ship is plotted exponentially.
    It's very simple math if you stop assuming there's no third value acting as an exponent.


    ... uh, incase you don't know what exponential is, it's the one that looks like this:

    image

    where for ever 1 on the x direction(number of ships in fleet), it can shoot up an increasing amount on the y direction(fleet level)

    Sometimes all you need is a graph instead of a paragraph of text. 

    video games animated GIF

  • EQUINOX 600
    EQUINOX 600
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined May 2012 Posts: 811
    GameHat said:

    Why do you assume they would make each level linear? I mean both your own evidence and carter himself even directly explained, the worth of each ship is plotted exponentially.
    It's very simple math if you stop assuming there's no third value acting as an exponent.


    ... uh, incase you don't know what exponential is, it's the one that looks like this:

    where for ever 1 on the x direction(number of ships in fleet), it can shoot up an increasing amount on the y direction(fleet level)

    The ships are not plotted exponentially if they were then both my example and the example provided by Vahlic would have had the same results given that the ships in my example and his have the same base value of 1 so if each ship is plotted exponentially as carter claims then both examples would have come out with the same result but as you can see they are radically different and Vahlics example does not conform to exponential growth.


    My example each ship with a  level of 1

    1 Ship = fleet level of 1

    2 Ship = fleet level of 3

    3 Ship = fleet level of 4

    4 Ship = fleet level of 6

    5 Ship = fleet level of 8

    6 Ship = fleet level of 11


    Vahlic's example again with each ship with a level of 1

    1 Ship = fleet level of 1

    2 Ship = fleet level of 1

    3 Ship = fleet level of 2

    4 Ship = fleet level of 2

    5 Ship = fleet level of 3

    6 Ship = fleet level of 3


    So as i said if fleets were calculated exponentially then both examples would have had the same result.



           Those ships are silly the people would need to be the size of ants to use them.
  • Vahlic
    Vahlic
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 79

    Clearly you fail to see the issue, I am fully aware of what exponential increase is... I'm glad you have the uber leet skills to search google for an image of an exponential curve as this is the first result when you search for exponential in google images.  

    GameHat said:

    where for ever 1 on the x direction(number of ships in fleet), it can shoot up an increasing amount on the y direction(fleet level)

    Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.  The number of ships is completely arbitrary.  It is completely dependent on the amount of experience the individual ships provide.  Lets use the image you provided as an example...  The x axis(horizontal) is level of the fleet... the y axis(vertical) is the total experience....  as the level increases the difference in experience necessary to reach the next level increases by more than a factor of 1 ie. non-linear increase.  


    The issue in reference here is the fact that identical ships being added to the fleet do not provide anything that could even possibly resemble an exponential experience curve.


    My guess is the game stored the values of the weapons/armor/shields he once had on the ship before he refitted to just the storage units.  This fault in memory storage could account for the inaccurate display of the levels of the fleet as he added more ships.


    Reread what is going on and then post something intellectually sound. 

  • Vahlic
    Vahlic
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 79
    GameHat said:

    Why do you assume they would make each level linear? I mean both your own evidence and carter himself even directly explained, the worth of each ship is plotted exponentially.
    It's very simple math if you stop assuming there's no third value acting as an exponent.


    ... uh, incase you don't know what exponential is, it's the one that looks like this:

    image

    where for ever 1 on the x direction(number of ships in fleet), it can shoot up an increasing amount on the y direction(fleet level)

    Sometimes all you need is a graph instead of a paragraph of text. 

    You need to fully understand the graph you use to make that point also, clearly he does not.  It is clear you have no understanding either.  To further disprove his statement of the x axis being the number of ships...  Imagine 6 different ships ie 5 revalations and 1 harrier.  Adding the 1 harrier would not change the level much if any at all(1 level max assuming the total exp of the revalations is just shy of the next levels required experience). 

  • GameHat
    GameHat
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Nov 2013 Posts: 361
    edited 3 Mar 2014, 8:00AM

    Yes, it is indeed one of the first images that appear on google :) . I just thought it was more polite to post the image rather than posting: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=exponential

    :P

    It seems however you have misunderstood, perhaps this is an easier way to explain:

    OP complained the fleet level seems higher than it 'should' be based on the amount given by the first ship. so -

    1 venom = 10xp (hypothetically)

    fleet xp = sum(individual ships xp value)^2
    eg.
    10^2 = 100 xp (lvl 1)
    (10+10)^2 = 400 xp (lvl 4)
    (10+10+10)^2 = 900 xp (lvl 9)
    (10+10+10+10)^2 = 1600 xp (lvl 16)

    Ergo, (despite all ships only being 'worth' the same amount, 10) adding extra ships increases the fleet level by more each time one is added instead of a flat rate. With a lower hull xp, the exponent will take longer to 'build up steam', which also explains your racors.

    ((also keep in mind, they only tell you fleet level as whole numbers, the actual value is likely stuff like '3.893456565', that is being truncated to 3 rather than rounded up to 4))
    3 chins, 3 teams, one victor;
  • Vahlic
    Vahlic
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 79
    It would make nearly no sense if they arbitrarily increased the experience of a fleet by some random exponential value.  Each ship has an experience value.  The exponential curve is the total amount of experience per level.  Take the graph you(GameHat) provided and ignore the number of ships in the fleet all together.  Lets even use the numbers from your previous post.   
    0 xp = lvl 1
    10^2 = 100 xp (lvl 1) needed to reach level 2
    (10+10)^2 = 400 xp (lvl 4) needed to reach level 3
    (10+10+10)^2 = 900 xp (lvl 9) needed to reach level 4
    (10+10+10+10)^2 = 1600 xp (lvl 16) needed to reach level 5
    Plot that with the level being the X axis and total experience being the Y axis.  If you look at that graph it would make sense that the number of ships in the fleet do not impact the level but the sum of the experience of each ship in the fleet would fit somewhere on this unknown experience curve determining the level of the fleet.  
  • Vahlic
    Vahlic
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 79

    Another point... The hull has very little impact on the total experience of a fleet.  An empty apoc has a level of 3.  Fully loaded apoc lvl 30+.  The type of tech on the hull has much greater impact on the exp of the ship.

  • RavenDrakar
    RavenDrakar
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Jul 2013 Posts: 1,259

    Vahlic what they are saying is the experiance level of the hull also factors in.  You used Rancors which are the lowest level battleship.  It has a lower experience value than Equinox's Venoms.  Math is math and the exponential increase is on the Exp value of the ship so the higher exp ship will have a faster exponential increase than the lower exp ship.  This should be common sense since we are saying that the math is wrong.  Now while the math is working correctly I don't see how a single venom with cargo fives should be a level 1 ship fleet in the first place, so the exp value on the venom may be too low, being right on the edge of being a level one fleet where it should atleast be a low end level 2 fleet especially with the Max cargo level on it.  


    I think the math is correct, but the fleet level exp needs balancing.


    Death flies on the wings of the Blackbird of Hell.
  • RavenDrakar
    RavenDrakar
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Jul 2013 Posts: 1,259
    Vahlic said:

    Another point... The hull has very little impact on the total experience of a fleet.  An empty apoc has a level of 3.  Fully loaded apoc lvl 30+.  The type of tech on the hull has much greater impact on the exp of the ship.

    Yeah I'm starting to think the Hull XP's are two low if an empty Apoc is a level 3 fleet

    Death flies on the wings of the Blackbird of Hell.
  • GameHat
    GameHat
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Nov 2013 Posts: 361
    edited 4 Mar 2014, 1:34AM

    I said the worth of each ship, not the required xp per level. :P

    Having two stronger ships rather than just one doesn't make the fleet only twice as strong, it actually makes it exponentially more powerful, and thus is assigned an exponential xp curve. (it appears)

    If anything, that would mean the thing you're talking about, xp required per level, would be an exponential decay, requiring less and less to reach the next level as you go up, basically so you accelerate upwards. ((either way results in the same outcome: Full fleet has a much higher level assigned to it than simply the sum of it's parts)).




    3 chins, 3 teams, one victor;
  • RavenDrakar
    RavenDrakar
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Jul 2013 Posts: 1,259

    God we're nerds.  LOL

    Death flies on the wings of the Blackbird of Hell.
  • KIXEYE CM CarterGee
    KIXEYE CM CarterGee
    Master Tactician
    Joined Sep 2013 Posts: 2,329

    Haha, I love how nerdy you guys are ;) We're looking into this balance and should have an update for you relatively soon to address levels of one ship fleets.

    - Carter
    Community Manager, Mobile Games
    VEGA Conflict, War Commander: Rogue Assault

    Twitter: CarterGee / VEGAConflict
  • Brandon Keeler
    Brandon Keeler
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Feb 2011 Posts: 1,185
    edited 4 Mar 2014, 8:08PM

    I'm noticing something different with my tier 3 fleets.

    Example, one of my fleets is

    1 Apoc: 31
    2 Apoc: 38 (+7)
    3 Apoc: 43 (+5)
    4 Apoc: 47 (+4)
    5 Apoc: 50 (+3)

    Not exponential.

    image
  • the mastadon
    the mastadon
    Master Tactician
    Joined Sep 2013 Posts: 2,132
    edited 4 Mar 2014, 8:12PM

    I'm noticing something different with my tier 3 fleets.

    Example, one of my fleets is

    1 Apoc: 31
    2 Apoc: 38 (+7)
    3 Apoc: 43 (+5)
    4 Apoc: 47 (+4)
    5 Apoc: 50 (+3)

    Not exponential.

    Yet the exp required for it to classify as n lvl is.

     
  • Brandon Keeler
    Brandon Keeler
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Feb 2011 Posts: 1,185
    edited 4 Mar 2014, 10:22PM

    I'm noticing something different with my tier 3 fleets.

    Example, one of my fleets is

    1 Apoc: 31
    2 Apoc: 38 (+7)
    3 Apoc: 43 (+5)
    4 Apoc: 47 (+4)
    5 Apoc: 50 (+3)

    Not exponential.

    Yet the exp required for it to classify as n lvl is.

    That's not the case for the first post, with the venoms.
    1 Venom: 1
    2 Venom: 3 (+2)
    3 Venom: 4 (+1)
    4 Venom: 6 (+2)
    5 Venom: 8 (+2)
    6 Venom: 11 (+3)

    image
  • the mastadon
    the mastadon
    Master Tactician
    Joined Sep 2013 Posts: 2,132

    I'm noticing something different with my tier 3 fleets.

    Example, one of my fleets is

    1 Apoc: 31
    2 Apoc: 38 (+7)
    3 Apoc: 43 (+5)
    4 Apoc: 47 (+4)
    5 Apoc: 50 (+3)

    Not exponential.

    Yet the exp required for it to classify as n lvl is.

    That's not the case for the first post, with the venoms.
    1 Venom: 1
    2 Venom: 3 (+2)
    3 Venom: 4 (+1)
    4 Venom: 6 (+2)
    5 Venom: 8 (+2)
    6 Venom: 11 (+3)

    Honestly, I'd love someone to just go into the game code to figure that out. End this. Exos to gen have done the same thing, same effectiveness as haulers. Yet I also am going by the assumption that the game doesnt count by anything other than a non fractional number. but yet again, at the last 2 venoms said rates increases in a pattern not in line with the first, unless the level is based off of a non standard table, I have no clue. I'd also love for someone to figure out how lvl 38 exos can exist either, because my gladius hawks make it to 37. As for the Apoc scenario of what I was going for is that with a lessening level increase per gained apoc, it has to be exponential to have said decrease. 

     
  • Vahlic
    Vahlic
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 79

    Here are 6 of my fleets, all built with 6 identically fitted ships:

    Flt name: 1 ship lvl, 2 ship lvl, 3 ship lvl, 4 ship lvl, 5 ship lvl, 6 ship lvl

    Beam Exos: 16, 22, 26, 28, 31, 32

    Beam Hawks: 20, 26, 30, 32, 35, 37

    Beam Revs: 28, 35, 39, 43, 46, 48

    Hydra Rancs: 18, 24, 28, 31, 33, 35

    MD Hawks: 20, 26, 30, 32, 35, 37

    MD Broads: 9, 17, 20, 23, 25, 26


    This should be plenty evidence that the number of ships in a fleet does not cause the level to increase exponentially and that each ship is worth x amount of experience, and every level has a specific amount of experience required and this rate of change between levels is similar to that of an exponential increase.


  • the mastadon
    the mastadon
    Master Tactician
    Joined Sep 2013 Posts: 2,132
    Vahlic said:

    Here are 6 of my fleets, all built with 6 identically fitted ships:

    Flt name: 1 ship lvl, 2 ship lvl, 3 ship lvl, 4 ship lvl, 5 ship lvl, 6 ship lvl

    Beam Exos: 16, 22, 26, 28, 31, 32

    Beam Hawks: 20, 26, 30, 32, 35, 37

    Beam Revs: 28, 35, 39, 43, 46, 48

    Hydra Rancs: 18, 24, 28, 31, 33, 35

    MD Hawks: 20, 26, 30, 32, 35, 37

    MD Broads: 9, 17, 20, 23, 25, 26


    This should be plenty evidence that the number of ships in a fleet does not cause the level to increase exponentially and that each ship is worth x amount of experience, and every level has a specific amount of experience required and this rate of change between levels is similar to that of an exponential increase.


    I thought the point was that the xp required for the next level is exponential, but there really isnt a decent pattern i can see to identify that its a normal curve.

     
  • Vahlic
    Vahlic
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 79

    Those are the level, like GameHat stated earlier in some cases the level could actually be 29.99999 and the level of the fleet would be represented at 29 due to concatenation.

  • dhalgren.moeller
    dhalgren.moeller
    Greenhorn
    Joined Sep 2013 Posts: 2

    Vahlic said:

    Here are 6 of my fleets, all built with 6 identically fitted ships:

    Flt name: 1 ship lvl, 2 ship lvl, 3 ship lvl, 4 ship lvl, 5 ship lvl, 6 ship lvl

    Beam Exos: 16, 22, 26, 28, 31, 32

    Beam Hawks: 20, 26, 30, 32, 35, 37

    Beam Revs: 28, 35, 39, 43, 46, 48

    Hydra Rancs: 18, 24, 28, 31, 33, 35

    MD Hawks: 20, 26, 30, 32, 35, 37

    MD Broads: 9, 17, 20, 23, 25, 26


    This should be plenty evidence that the number of ships in a fleet does not cause the level to increase exponentially and that each ship is worth x amount of experience, and every level has a specific amount of experience required and this rate of change between levels is similar to that of an exponential increase.



    While these numbers do not fit into a standard exponential pattern, if you make a scatter plot for each you do see a similar pattern for each set of numbers.  The closest regression I found to fit was actually a logistic regression (at least the upper portion of it).

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