Irridium magnets against bases

P.Artreides
P.Artreides
Minor Nuisance
Joined Oct 2013 Posts: 108
edited 11 Nov 2013, 3:23PM

Ok, each time i mention this people act like im an idiot, they do not let any information enter their brains and thus i am unable to explain. Hopefully i can explain in a forum post better than in chat with all the narrow minded, stubborn, probably not very smart kids with very low player numbers shouting that bases dont move and i am a noob. 

First of all, no need to discuss the viability of projectile weapons in destroying bases vs energy weapons. I know in most cases energy weapons will do a better job. Projectile weapons only do better on very spread out bases that nullify splash damage and where part of your explosive weapons dont hit any target. I am not trying to convince anyone that a projectile + magnet fleet is the optimal method to kill any base. I am just trying to explain that magnets are indeed a good addition to a projectile ship attacking a base.

When you use a projectile weapon against a base, it will fire the next salvo at a module while the first is still traveling towards the target. Therefore, even if the one traveling is enough to kill the target, your ship will always fire another shot at the soon to be dead target. This is a totally wasted shot. Each module receives at least 1 wasted shot. 

With say 35 modules in a base, that is 35 wasted shots. At 4 seconds per shot, this means 140 seconds of a ships worth firepower is lost on wasted shots ! That is at least half its total shooting time (you never get to shoot the whole 300 seconds, you have to move first) Depending if you have 6 weaker ships or fewer stronger ships, this means you lose between 8% and 16% of your firepower. Equiping your ship with irridium magnet 2 will stop this from happening. 

However, your other ships might also be firing at this module while the last needed lethal shot already traveling towards it. This will not be 100% prevented with irridium magnets but surely it will be reduced. It is hard to fit a number on this, it also depends on how much you space out your ships. All in all i would say 10-20% of wasted firepower can be prevented by using irridium magnets on base hitter fleets. As an added bonus, the target module will die about 2 seconds faster and thus half the time shoot one less projectile before it dies. 

  • RAID3N
    RAID3N
    Potential Threat
    Joined Oct 2013 Posts: 61

    What if I told you phased projectiles did a better job?

  • P.Artreides
    P.Artreides
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Oct 2013 Posts: 108
    edited 12 Nov 2013, 1:25PM

    I'd think that is a bit of a blunt statement. Usually things are not always better or worse but it depends on the situation. At this point (im level 23) i rarely meet shields on bases at all for example. Also is it doesnt have to be either-or. A battle ship has 2 special slots. 

    Most importantly though, I prefer proper analysis over blunt statements and the conclusion that one thing is in some or many ocasions better than the other does not mean you should stop studying it. 

    So lets get started. Maybe you can help me provide the numbers ?


    Lets say i attack an object for 100 dmg without phased projectiles.

    10 dmg is done to the hull.

    what damage is done to the shields both the correct and incorrect shields ?  

    • 45/90 ?
    • 50/100 ?
    • something different ?

    Now if i attack with phased projectiles 3 for example:

    what damage will i do now to the hull ?

    • still 10 ? (and only the shields go down faster))
    • 10 + 30 = 40 ?
    • 10 + 30%of 90 = 37 ?
    • something different ?

    and what damage will i now do to the shields ?

    • 35/70 ? 
    • 50/100 ?
    • 65/130 ? (to go with first option with above question)
    • something different ?

    If anyone knows please share. But please only if you know, speculation is useless.

    While we are at it, i would also like all precise info on the ion modulator because as i see it now, its use looks extremely situational to me (only targets that have way more shield than hitpoints or youd have to use 1 ship to remove shields before the next one can remove the hitpoints) maybe i am not understanding everything correctly. 

  • Cyrus Leung
    Cyrus Leung
    VC Mod
    Joined Jan 2013 Posts: 3,664

    You could always simply target the next module right before the current module would be destroyed by the current shot.

  • P.Artreides
    P.Artreides
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Oct 2013 Posts: 108
    edited 12 Nov 2013, 1:41PM

    That makes your battleships stop and thus get hit.

    Why does everyone seemingly find it so difficult to think about things they apearently didnt think about before ? Why always trying to prove someone wrong or irrelevant ? Nothing usefull is being replied, just some blunt statements with about 1,5 seconds of thought put into it. What is your problem ? Do you understand that humanity made progress the last 10.000s of years because people study stuff, do research, sometimes even without knowing what for ? Not by people being lazy to think and just wanting to put down those that do.

  • Cyrus Leung
    Cyrus Leung
    VC Mod
    Joined Jan 2013 Posts: 3,664

    That makes your battleships stop and thus get hit.

    Why does everyone seemingly find it so difficult to think about things they apearently didnt think about before ? Why always trying to prove someone wrong or irrelevant ? Nothing usefull is being replied, just some blunt statements with about 1,5 seconds of thought put into it. What is your problem ?


    You could right-click the target (instead of left-clicking) so that your ships won't stop while targeting.

  • P.Artreides
    P.Artreides
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Oct 2013 Posts: 108
    edited 12 Nov 2013, 1:52PM

    Hmm, let me try that, didnt know that works :) TY this is great for sniping those defended storages !

    But not very relevant to the discussion since i am more than busy enough trying to keep multiple vesels circling a base without getting hit, requiring me to make very weak turns on each of them individually all the time. So please someone come with data on those phased projectiles and the ion modulator now :)


  • Silligoose
    Silligoose
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 954
    edited 12 Nov 2013, 2:21PM

    While what you say is true regarding the positive effect magnets can have on a base hit, as mentioned by others it is not needed as one can target manually with right click. On the plus side, should your ships be caught, they will be ever so slightly harder to kill. By fitting the magnets, you are however also giving up some potential mass that could have been used for more armour, speed or firepower, depending on your build, not to mention a special slot you could use for cargo if you are so inclined.

    Phased projectiles is a waste on a fleet used for base hitting imo.

    Edit: Regarding the operation of phased projectiles, read this thread:https://www.kixeye.com/forum/discussion/comment/3314856/

    Despite what is said here by who appears to be Kix employee, I still see some confusion regarding phased projectiles. In my experience what was said by him appears to be correct.

  • P.Artreides
    P.Artreides
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Oct 2013 Posts: 108

    Yes, while it provides 10-20% extra effective firepower, it costs 12% of weapon mass. So it kind of evens out there. Use of it is situational depending on your current weapons and armor and weight available. Some is true i guess for all special equipment, hence why i want to research it. AM warheads are also gonna need some analysis. Thanks for the link. If that is indeed correct then phased projectiles are rather pointless as they would not increase the total (armor+shield) damage your weapons do and only in extreme cases would you be able to kill the module before the shield is down. 

  • i_Nicked_Yer_Knickers
    i_Nicked_Yer_Knickers
    Potential Threat
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 95
    edited 12 Nov 2013, 4:15PM
    By ignoring a percentage of the shield's protection, however, you kill the module faster by dealing more damage directly to its health per shot (while shielded).
  • Silligoose
    Silligoose
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 954

    Yes, while it provides 10-20% extra effective firepower, it costs 12% of weapon mass. So it kind of evens out there. Use of it is situational depending on your current weapons and armor and weight available. Some is true i guess for all special equipment, hence why i want to research it. AM warheads are also gonna need some analysis. Thanks for the link. If that is indeed correct then phased projectiles are rather pointless as they would not increase the total (armor+shield) damage your weapons do and only in extreme cases would you be able to kill the module before the shield is down. 

    Even if you don't end up liking the magnets on venoms, they can work well on hawks, not only for vega's, but more importantly for some FvF battles - few things are as fun as pure ranged frigate battles 
  • pureFlameX
    pureFlameX
    Potential Threat
    Joined Jun 2011 Posts: 57
    edited 15 Nov 2013, 3:58PM

    Yes, while it provides 10-20% extra effective firepower, it costs 12% of weapon mass. So it kind of evens out there. Use of it is situational depending on your current weapons and armor and weight available. Some is true i guess for all special equipment, hence why i want to research it. AM warheads are also gonna need some analysis. Thanks for the link. If that is indeed correct then phased projectiles are rather pointless as they would not increase the total (armor+shield) damage your weapons do and only in extreme cases would you be able to kill the module before the shield is down. 

    Even if you don't end up liking the magnets on venoms, they can work well on hawks, not only for vega's, but more importantly for some FvF battles - few things are as fun as pure ranged frigate battles 

    Modules are stationary targets. Which dumb player will use phased projectiles for FvF?

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