How Bonuses Stack

KIXEYE Swag
KIXEYE Swag
Unicorn Overlord
Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 3,665
edited 13 Feb 2013, 12:11AM
Greetings Captains,

There’s been some confusion as to how stacking bonuses works in Battle Pirates, so let’s clear that up.

First, there are two types of bonus systems: additive and multiplicative. Most (though not all!) bonuses in Battle Pirates are multiplicative. Here's how a multiplicative system works:

Imagine that I have a Battle Barge, which has 2 slots for special items.

Let’s say my Battle Barge fights an enemy with an explosive attack that deals 100 damage per hit. With no resistances, my ship would take 100 damage for every successful attack. Not awesome.

To make my ship tougher I put Ablative Armor I on my Battle Barge, which provides 33% Explosive Defense. Now every successful attack from this explosive weapon only deals 67 damage. This is because 33% of the 100 damage is mitigated by the Ablative Armor I. Awesome.

I decide to put Zynthonite Armor DI-X on my Battle Barge for another 10% Explosive Defense, in order to make it even more resistant to explosive weapons. I expect that each attack from this explosive weapon is now going to only deal a measly 57 damage, but instead each successful attack is dealing 60.3 damage!

What gives?

Remember what I said about bonuses using a multiplicative system? The bonuses aren’t applied all at once. Instead, imagine them being applied one at a time.

First the attack deals 100 damage…
BUT WAIT! There’s an Ablative Armor I here. Remove 33% of that damage.
Ok, then the attack deals 67 damage….
BUT WAIT! There’s a Zynthonite Armor DI-X here. Remove 10% of THAT damage.
Ok, then the attack deals 60.3 damage.
Fine, 60.3 damage it is.

Hope that helps - you'll have to experiment to find out which systems are additive and which are multiplicative.
  • Jack_M
    Jack_M
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 228
    Useful post, I personally already had the math figured out but hopefully this will help others understand the math better.
    Jack
    Level 52
  • absolutely_pissed
    absolutely_pissed
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined May 2011 Posts: 529
    good explanation swag. I too already had it figured out but newbies don't. I understand why its done this way, especially with armor.
    "I assume they cut off all outside contact and put bars on the windows, feed the devs white bread and salt water all weekend till they snap and crap out a new lab...."

  • RoarFury
    RoarFury
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Feb 2011 Posts: 1,739
    which bonuses are additive?
  • KIXEYE CS Xandamere
    KIXEYE CS Xandamere
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 1,120
    As Swag noted...
    you'll have to experiment to find out which systems are additive and which are multiplicative.
    Kixeye Customer Service

    Fortis fortuna adiuvat
  • RoarFury
    RoarFury
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Feb 2011 Posts: 1,739
    As Swag noted...

    :( ok
    well anyways does the additive system work such that
    50% bonus+50%bonus=100%bonus?
  • absolutely_pissed
    absolutely_pissed
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined May 2011 Posts: 529
    genereally speaking additives a +2 or +10, generally speaking the multiplicative values are percentages.
    "I assume they cut off all outside contact and put bars on the windows, feed the devs white bread and salt water all weekend till they snap and crap out a new lab...."

  • Deadstone Carter
    Deadstone Carter
    Potential Threat
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 67
    I suspect ship speed only has one bonus applied, the highest.

    Tried ENG3 with 5% speed armour, on Seawolves) and the 5% does not seem to apply.
    Need to test with a weapon speed bonus.

    Open for input.

    Thus we can hypothesize the greater of ENGINE or ARMOUR or WEAPON ship speed bonuses apply.
    We can also emit the hypothesis a maximum speed enhancement can be reached (for each ship model or total) past which bonuses are void.
    We can also try to order bonus sources, ENG, ARM, WEP (and maybe MOD (module)).
    There might also be a maximum bonus from a same source (do 2 WEP bonuses add, for example).
  • iwrk4dedpr
    iwrk4dedpr
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 888
    As Swag noted...



    and is that because YOU DON'T know ...
    Kixeye won't let you TELL the players ...

    or

    Kixeye doesn't really know?
  • Digger Jones
    Digger Jones
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 1,393
    I suspect this is not because Kixeye don't know. After all they wrote it. I suspect this is because Kixeye can change and alter it without notice.
    Sunk a DreadX with a Frigate.. I'm not bothered about what you have.. I'll find the smallest thing to take it out.
  • iwrk4dedpr
    iwrk4dedpr
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 888
    I suspect this is not because Kixeye don't know. After all they wrote it. I suspect this is because Kixeye can change and alter it without notice.


    Yeah... I forgot to turn on the sarcasm font. My BAD!
  • Pheasant Plucker
    Pheasant Plucker
    Greenhorn
    Joined Dec 2011 Posts: 6

    Hope that helps - you'll have to experiment to find out which systems are additive and which are multiplicative.

    Why don't you just tell us instead of making us work it out?

    how would we work it out anyhow?
  • ryan723
    ryan723
    Master Tactician
    Joined Jun 2011 Posts: 2,261
    I suspect ship speed only has one bonus applied, the highest.

    Tried ENG3 with 5% speed armour, on Seawolves) and the 5% does not seem to apply.
    Need to test with a weapon speed bonus.

    Open for input.

    Thus we can hypothesize the greater of ENGINE or ARMOUR or WEAPON ship speed bonuses apply.
    We can also emit the hypothesis a maximum speed enhancement can be reached (for each ship model or total) past which bonuses are void.
    We can also try to order bonus sources, ENG, ARM, WEP (and maybe MOD (module)).
    There might also be a maximum bonus from a same source (do 2 WEP bonuses add, for example).

    I think you may be calculating the 5% increase in battle speed and it does not come with map speed, I only have 1 armor that adds to map speed.
    Lucky Luke wrote: »
    Our group has started to call them Zombie fleets....for obvious reasons.

    http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7492/mynewsig.png
    I will be following this thread with interest. Please carry on.
  • Joshua Ruff
    Joshua Ruff
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 685
    RoarFury wrote: »
    which bonuses are additive?

    bonuses like what teh striker and dread X have with mortars is additive, if you put HE3 (50% extra splash) on a striker, you will have 80% because the striker and dread X have 30% built in splash bonuses.

    Same with HB3 on the goliath and battleship, if you add HB3 (50% extra ballistic range) on a battleship, its adds 50% on its built in 10% making 60% range, with goliath its something like 80% but i cant remember the bonus for goliath as i dont have one.

    Overall, any bonuses that help protect your ships are usually dealt using multiplication stacked bonuses, why? well if you put AA3 (66% explosive resistance) on the strike cruiser, if it was additive it would equal to 106%, that way its IMMUNE to explosives and technically gives 6% hp from teh total damage of an explosive (which would be freaking cool!)

    Maybe kixeye will make a ship that has near immunity to one type of weapon (e.g. built in 90% resistant to missiles and you add RA3, would do something like 99% resistance).

    Hope this helps you others too :)
    (Meh everyone does, so why not....) Won: Interdictor, Striker, Halo, Super Fort, Golliath, Spectre, Cuda, Corvette, Light cruiser, Destroyer.....that is all my friends...
    Level: 50
    Sectors visited: Who cares?...
  • Nickolas Griffith
    Nickolas Griffith
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Sep 2011 Posts: 3,405
    wait so...how come i cant ever add lets say...1 layered armor 3 x1 and 1 ablative armor x1...or i of the armors x 2...we can only ever have 1 version of it
  • RoarFury
    RoarFury
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Feb 2011 Posts: 1,739
    wait so...how come i cant ever add lets say...1 layered armor 3 x1 and 1 ablative armor x1...or i of the armors x 2...we can only ever have 1 version of it

    thats just to prevent ships from becoming overly tanky. imagine a ship where you took less 20 percent of all incoming damage. thats just any ship with 4 special slots, all for armour specials. they would **** near never die. of course u can actually in practice get really close to that using evade. for example this one:
    Ultimate Shipyard link
    would make a nice guard fleet, put whatever u want on it, it only takes a cool 25% damage from all accuracy based weapons and half damage from explosive.
  • Commodity Guru Vinay
    Commodity Guru Vinay
    Greenhorn
    Joined May 2012 Posts: 2
    hey kixeye i attack many salv but not found any shock wave im lvl 29 but i see lvl 25 got shock wave how possible piz fix prob.i need only 1 bp then i buy all bp.
  • Onlyvipuser
    Onlyvipuser
    Potential Threat
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 28
    how do splash bonuses stack?
    Ultimate shipyard just stacks them up.
  • jaketheparrot
    jaketheparrot
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Sep 2012 Posts: 207
    Weird but cool :lol: thxs swag
    Its called Battle Pirates not Bubble Pirates so get out of your bubble and fight me o.O
    |^^^^^^^^^^^\||____
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    | _____________ l||__|__|__|)
    ..|(@)@)&quot;""""""**|(@)(@)**|(@) <
    all credit goes too Tom Borland kixeye moderator
  • darthgoober
    darthgoober
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined May 2012 Posts: 284
    wait so...how come i cant ever add lets say...1 layered armor 3 x1 and 1 ablative armor x1...or i of the armors x 2...we can only ever have 1 version of it

    Probably because it would be unrealistic. An armor special isn't something that you put on top of your armor to add a special effect, it's a specific TYPE of armor that you put on. Layered armor comes in multiple layers to reduce the kinetic energy of ballistics while remaining relatively intact, ablative armor is designed to "break off" when hit so that most of the damage damage is done to the armor itself rather than the thing it's armoring, and reactive armor... well I don't remember the specifics of reactive armor but you get the idea. So trying to make the same armor work on more than one principle actually reduces the armors effectiveness against the individual types of damage. That's why compound armor has such a lower level of resistance to each damage type.
  • TomBrooklyn
    TomBrooklyn
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Oct 2012 Posts: 2,754
    I didn't know armor was considered a bonus. I thought this would be about the resource bonus from capturing mines.

  • Captain Big Sexy
    Captain Big Sexy
    Potential Threat
    Joined Nov 2012 Posts: 49
    In what order do the bonuses apply? From largest to smallest? Does this break down to each individual piece of bonus, like when you add 4 x evade armor, Speed System evade and Guidance scrambler onto a Battleship? Or will the armor evade stack and be applied all at once? Just curious since the details actually matter in making an informed decision on builds.
    Ever notice how it's always like the same 3 or 4 people
    that dislike every thread started about something that would benefit the
    players? Even if it's a valid idea... Are these Kixeye employees,
    trolling? I wonder.
  • Rixa Pirata
    Rixa Pirata
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2012 Posts: 812
    Ok, so what about defenses?

    Say for example, the victory mortar with a reload time of 10 seconds, and 1500 damage....the slide loader 2 clearly says "Explosive reload +125%, Explosive damage -55%".

    First of all....I wont even get into the fact that "+125%" is confusing as it implies an INCREASE in reload time.....I'll assume that is not the case. What I want to know is, how is 125% even possible? Does that mean it turns into a gatling mortar with 675 damage??
  • Susan Renee Spears
    Susan Renee Spears
    Greenhorn
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 6
    Great Game!
  • Desicus
    Desicus
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 239
    Ok, so what about defenses?

    Say for example, the victory mortar with a reload time of 10 seconds, and 1500 damage....the slide loader 2 clearly says "Explosive reload +125%, Explosive damage -55%".

    First of all....I wont even get into the fact that "+125%" is confusing as it implies an INCREASE in reload time.....I'll assume that is not the case. What I want to know is, how is 125% even possible? Does that mean it turns into a gatling mortar with 675 damage??

    i have been wondering the same thing.. for example with Auto Loader 3 it has 110% ballistic reload speed. Ripper 4 has reload speed of 1.5 seconds 110% of 1.5 is 1.65..... 1.5-1.65 is NEGATIVE 0.15. so .15 before it fires it fires but .15 before that fires it fires but .15 before THAT fires it fires.... oh no ive gone cross eyed...

    Kixeye please explain...
    Blue Prints I don't have : None.
    Hulls I don't have: Proto-Nemesis

    BP is a game of money, time or patience, if you don't have the first you
    better have the second two, and if you don't have any of them you need
    to re-examine why you are playing in the first place. -Desicus

  • southern92
    southern92
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 853
    It is 110% INCREASE in reload speed, or 110% faster. I believe (but have not verified) the math is:
    (NewRate + (Increase%*NewRate)) = OldRate
    So for the Ripper4 example above (OldRate = 1.5, Increase% = 110)
    (NewRate + 110%NewRate) = 1.5
    NewRate*(1+1.10) = 1.5
    NewRate*(2.1) = 1.5
    NewRate = 1.5/2.1
    NewRate = 0.714
  • Mr. Blizzard
    Mr. Blizzard
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Jun 2012 Posts: 3,176
    ([Damage] * (1 + [Damage Bonus])) / ([Reload] / (1 + [Reload bonus]) + 0.1 * ([Salvo] - 1)) = [DPS]Not factoring in splash or spread

    that is the exact formula post by Paul Peerce sometime ago, it's mainly used for slide loader with VM.



  • Blazing_Darkness
    Blazing_Darkness
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Nov 2010 Posts: 8,162
    ([Damage] * (1 + [Damage Bonus])) / ([Reload] / (1 + [Reload bonus]) + 0.1 * ([Salvo] - 1)) = [DPS]Not factoring in splash or spread

    that is the exact formula post by Paul Peerce sometime ago, it's mainly used for slide loader with VM.
    That wasn't posted by Paul Preece... I'm amazed how much that has been passed around though.
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  • cl0wn
    cl0wn
    Potential Threat
    Joined Oct 2012 Posts: 34
    edited 26 Feb 2013, 8:07PM
    Greetings Captains,

    There’s been some confusion as to how stacking bonuses works in Battle Pirates, so let’s clear that up.

    First, there are two types of bonus systems: additive and multiplicative. Most (though not all!) bonuses in Battle Pirates are multiplicative. Here's how a multiplicative system works:

    Imagine that I have a Battle Barge, which has 2 slots for special items.

    Let’s say my Battle Barge fights an enemy with an explosive attack that deals 100 damage per hit. With no resistances, my ship would take 100 damage for every successful attack. Not awesome.

    To make my ship tougher I put Ablative Armor I on my Battle Barge, which provides 33% Explosive Defense. Now every successful attack from this explosive weapon only deals 67 damage. This is because 33% of the 100 damage is mitigated by the Ablative Armor I. Awesome.

    I decide to put Zynthonite Armor DI-X on my Battle Barge for another 10% Explosive Defense, in order to make it even more resistant to explosive weapons. I expect that each attack from this explosive weapon is now going to only deal a measly 57 damage, but instead each successful attack is dealing 60.3 damage!

    What gives?

    Remember what I said about bonuses using a multiplicative system? The bonuses aren’t applied all at once. Instead, imagine them being applied one at a time.

    First the attack deals 100 damage…
    BUT WAIT! There’s an Ablative Armor I here. Remove 33% of that damage.
    Ok, then the attack deals 67 damage….
    BUT WAIT! There’s a Zynthonite Armor DI-X here. Remove 10% of THAT damage.
    Ok, then the attack deals 60.3 damage.
    Fine, 60.3 damage it is.

    Hope that helps - you'll have to experiment to find out which systems are additive and which are multiplicative.
    I find it interesting that when talking about damage dealt, these bonuses are stacked "one at a time", causing more damage to be dealt than it would seem, as in your example.  Yet when you consider the beneficial statistics of some other bonuses, they are applied additively, not multiplicitively.  For example, the range boost for ballistic weapons on a Goliath is added to any other buffers received by, say, hardened barrels, but the percentage added is ALWAYS a percentage of the weapon's original range, and not the already buffed stat.  Things that make you go "Hmm"...
    lvl78,  sector 479

    BB Alpha Alliance Leader

    "Don't even think about fighting back, just sit there and continue licking windows...or the inside of your bubble"
  • cl0wn
    cl0wn
    Potential Threat
    Joined Oct 2012 Posts: 34
    I suspect ship speed only has one bonus applied, the highest.

    Tried ENG3 with 5% speed armour, on Seawolves) and the 5% does not seem to apply.
    Need to test with a weapon speed bonus.

    Open for input.

    Thus we can hypothesize the greater of ENGINE or ARMOUR or WEAPON ship speed bonuses apply.
    We can also emit the hypothesis a maximum speed enhancement can be reached (for each ship model or total) past which bonuses are void.
    We can also try to order bonus sources, ENG, ARM, WEP (and maybe MOD (module)).
    There might also be a maximum bonus from a same source (do 2 WEP bonuses add, for example).
    Same concept that I just posted about...these speed bonuses are applied additively, not muliplicitively, and always as a percentage of the ship's ORIGINAL combat speed (or map speed, if that's what you want).
    lvl78,  sector 479

    BB Alpha Alliance Leader

    "Don't even think about fighting back, just sit there and continue licking windows...or the inside of your bubble"
  • Capt_Crunch82
    Capt_Crunch82
    Greenhorn
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 10
    Greetings Captains,

    There’s been some confusion as to how stacking bonuses works in Battle Pirates, so let’s clear that up.

    First, there are two types of bonus systems: additive and multiplicative. Most (though not all!) bonuses in Battle Pirates are multiplicative. Here's how a multiplicative system works:

    Imagine that I have a Battle Barge, which has 2 slots for special items.

    Let’s say my Battle Barge fights an enemy with an explosive attack that deals 100 damage per hit. With no resistances, my ship would take 100 damage for every successful attack. Not awesome.

    To make my ship tougher I put Ablative Armor I on my Battle Barge, which provides 33% Explosive Defense. Now every successful attack from this explosive weapon only deals 67 damage. This is because 33% of the 100 damage is mitigated by the Ablative Armor I. Awesome.

    I decide to put Zynthonite Armor DI-X on my Battle Barge for another 10% Explosive Defense, in order to make it even more resistant to explosive weapons. I expect that each attack from this explosive weapon is now going to only deal a measly 57 damage, but instead each successful attack is dealing 60.3 damage!

    What gives?

    Remember what I said about bonuses using a multiplicative system? The bonuses aren’t applied all at once. Instead, imagine them being applied one at a time.

    First the attack deals 100 damage…
    BUT WAIT! There’s an Ablative Armor I here. Remove 33% of that damage.
    Ok, then the attack deals 67 damage….
    BUT WAIT! There’s a Zynthonite Armor DI-X here. Remove 10% of THAT damage.
    Ok, then the attack deals 60.3 damage.
    Fine, 60.3 damage it is.

    Hope that helps - you'll have to experiment to find out which systems are additive and which are multiplicative.
    this was very helpful!!!

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