Predator Submarine Armor Adjustment

  • Stomper
    Stomper
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Mar 2012 Posts: 125
    The stalkers with no armor only take 15 minutes to repair. So it won't be that bad.
    image
  • Hast at work
    Hast at work
    Master Tactician
    Joined Feb 2012 Posts: 2,308
    Stomper wrote: »
    The stalkers with no armor only take 15 minutes to repair. So it won't be that bad.

    AFAIK this change has not been implemented yet, and I think it only affects predators. And you are right, it wont be that bad.
    Base Name: Praetor [Locust]
    Current Level: 63 Current Sector: Pansyland
    Raid Hulls: All of them, yes, all of them.
    Oh and we didn't do it for money.
  • Jacobinthe813
    Jacobinthe813
    Greenhorn
    Joined Jan 2012 Posts: 3
    Well I definatly wouldn't be having as much fun without them, or be spending anymore coin, period. I would not ever have been able to grow fast enough to make this game fun to play. I would have rather went and bought a pc game from the store!
  • Jacobinthe813
    Jacobinthe813
    Greenhorn
    Joined Jan 2012 Posts: 3
    my major reply to this is that when there is nothing else possible to do ( i have come to this point more than once) and you have to repair before you can even salv. for resources you get bored and lose intrest in the game altogether going to do something else that you enjoy or is more fun. Isn't a game supposed to be fun and it not possible to get bored during it waiting for repairs to finish?
  • No..Beard
    No..Beard
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Jun 2010 Posts: 3,792
    I think that KIXEYE should look at the generic problem that sub-spamming is just one symptom of:

    Instant-Repair Abuse

    Before there were subs, there was still the problem of irritating denial-of-gameplay attacks with gunboats, marauders, etc. Subs are just presently the tool of choice.

    Tweak the instant repair model instead so that players cannot repair 100 puny ships in an hour (not an exaggeration).

    Imposing a 'cooldown' on the 'fix now' button would be a simple and lasting remedy. Something like 2 or 3 minutes between uses, or 'only 10 uses per hour'
    This would eliminate the outright spam tactics (subs and other ships) while leaving the feature ALMOST as useful for the rest of us.

    A ship with a, say, ten-minute repair would still need five minutes real-time plus the speedup, so you can only do that 12 times per hour anyways.


    If someone REALLY wanted to fixup lots of fleets that takes less than 30 minutes to fix, and cannot wait a couple of minutes, then they can spend a WHOLE DIME for each such fleet. Big whoop.

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  • SparrowKiller
    SparrowKiller
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2011 Posts: 42
    I can not for the life of me understand where all the whining and crying I have seen tonight comes from. "leave my subs the way they are or I'll quit!" or "Kixeye are just money grubbing mongers!" PAWLEASE!!!!!! the change they are going to implement is making preds take MAYBE a whole 10 minutes per sub fully sunk to repair. that's a little over 5 minutes per ship. BIG WHOOP! Hell yall should be cheering cause then they can take a little damage instead of being sunk the first time a pebble hits it, or in most salving cases, a glitch or heat seeking mort. And yes at lvl 31 i still use my subs to salve some, or did before I started building SFB SW which I should have done ages ago. This is a good change so that subs can't be spammed at someone or as a primary base defense. If you can't stand to wait the 5 minutes to repair them then build a second fleet and between salves click the base to hit your speed up and start the next sub. Provided you don't glitch out like I do you should have NO problems. So please stop the whining and crying!
    SparrowKiller

    Level 31

    Sector 124 currently

    Sectors visited: 97, 98, 118, 351, 1, 124

  • Heather Robinson
    Heather Robinson
    Greenhorn
    Joined Feb 2012 Posts: 6
    You seem pretty reasonable Heather. I don't understand the problem tho. They aren't taking subs away, you can still use them to open salvages for yourself, and surely the added armor will only remove the ability to instantly repair and only add a few minutes repair time. In terms of salvaging this would mean virtually zero difference. The difference comes in player vs player battles where subs were routinely abused to do damage dissproportionate to their cost (which will ALSO remain the same) and then mean nothing if sunk because they could be instantly repaired and relaunched.

    I have personally had it happen when trying to hit a base where all the person needs is 2 sub fleets, 1 to keep you engaged while he instantly repairs the second one. He can then suicide run his subs in, and even if he only hits with 1 or 2 torpedoes, he essentially wins.

    I am resanable and do see your point, I know i will still get my subs just sometimes with the glitches it does take me abit longer to open salvages, so with no instant repair will now take me longer is all i am saying, lol. I do understand the bigger player point of view too, and subs are the only good defence i have against the bigger player too, although not always :) till i get a better fleet which i cannot till i reserch the bigger fleets and in order to do that I have to salvage to get resorces and defend so maybe the bigger repair time will proberbly seem fair:~)
    I see my bigger friends open there salvages in one with there seawolves and wished i had some lol
  • SparrowKiller
    SparrowKiller
    Potential Threat
    Joined Dec 2011 Posts: 42
    I am resanable and do see your point, I know i will still get my subs just sometimes with the glitches it does take me abit longer to open salvages, so with no instant repair will now take me longer is all i am saying, lol. I do understand the bigger player point of view too, and subs are the only good defence i have against the bigger player too, although not always :) till i get a better fleet which i cannot till i reserch the bigger fleets and in order to do that I have to salvage to get resorces and defend so maybe the bigger repair time will proberbly seem fair:~)
    I see my bigger friends open there salvages in one with there seawolves and wished i had some lol

    You will get there Heather ;) It just takes time and patience as in all things :) One trick I used at your lvl to save up resources was picking a research i didn't "need" yet to hide resources in over night, and when I came on I'd cancel the research and keep collecting. For instance the DU I-III researches all work well for this as DU IV should be the key objective for armor both for fleets and base defense. Hope some of these tips help ya as well as maybe some of the other low lvl's out there going "oh whoa is me!!! **** YOU KIXEYE!!!" LOL ;)
    SparrowKiller

    Level 31

    Sector 124 currently

    Sectors visited: 97, 98, 118, 351, 1, 124

  • Burke
    Burke
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Jun 2011 Posts: 1,005
    I think that KIXEYE should look at the generic problem that sub-spamming is just one symptom of:

    Instant-Repair Abuse

    Before there were subs, there was still the problem of irritating denial-of-gameplay attacks with gunboats, marauders, etc. Subs are just presently the tool of choice.

    Tweak the instant repair model instead so that players cannot repair 100 puny ships in an hour (not an exaggeration).

    Imposing a 'cooldown' on the 'fix now' button would be a simple and lasting remedy. Something like 2 or 3 minutes between uses, or 'only 10 uses per hour'
    This would eliminate the outright spam tactics (subs and other ships) while leaving the feature ALMOST as useful for the rest of us.

    A ship with a, say, ten-minute repair would still need five minutes real-time plus the speedup, so you can only do that 12 times per hour anyways.


    If someone REALLY wanted to fixup lots of fleets that takes less than 30 minutes to fix, and cannot wait a couple of minutes, then they can spend a WHOLE DIME for each such fleet. Big whoop.

    What about raids? Taking away the 5 minute speedup during raids would reinforce the trend that prior winners of the raid hulls get a huge advantage and others are increasingly barred from breaking in to get the buffed raid hulls. Also, high level players at the moment have had the benefit of the 5 minute speedup for a year now.

    Maybe tweak instant repair some, like a 1 minute per ship delay after say 20 ships in an hour. That should put a real dent in the instant-repair spamming you refer to. However, I don't think that's as big a problem as a small handful of people are making it out to be. I have been playing for a year and I have seen it used twice, months ago by me, both times against people who were subsequently banned for hacking. It's deadly boring and if the attacker has much skill, it seems like they can attack the base with enough ships to get past guard fleets anyway. And, as has been noted before in those "how dare lower level players use guard fleets" threads, you can always come back and flatten the base when they're offline (assuming some reform of the bubble rules is put in place).

    Sub spamming is fundamentally different than, say, marauder spamming because the subs have nearly perfect defense when submerged, so they can usually get off a shot or two and wear down attackers. The 4 seconds per armor point repair cost for them (if I remember correctly) should offset a lot of that, but maybe a tweak is in order.

    Before you go making things even worse for people who aren't already at the top of the food chain, let's look at some usage numbers before and after the high level blueprints and raid hulls started significantly impacting the game:
    See http://forums.kixeye.com/threads/108154-Player-Mass-Exodus-from-game-underway-after-new-repair-times?p=904504&viewfull=1#post904504 on September 29, 2011, before the October 2011 first raid event:
    MAU & DAU (Monthly active users and daily active users).

    In the last month the game has gone from about 1.5 million players up to over 2 million.

    In the last 2 days statistics show an active 280,000 players which in the last 2 days since repair times were increased by 6 times it shows today daily active users of 240,000.

    from http://www.appdata.com/apps/facebook/148669555176974-battle-pirates on March 21, 2012:

    200,000 DAU
    960,000 MAU

    At this rate, KIXEYE could easily succeed in decreasing their usage to "half a million users in a game" by this summer. See their article: http://forums.kixeye.com/threads/184558-KIXEYE-in-the-news?p=1605159&viewfull=1#post1605159
  • Azmodan
    Azmodan
    Potential Threat
    Joined Mar 2012 Posts: 69
    I'm new to the forums, but I just had to post on this. I'm one of the sub using cry babies. If you take away the instant sub repair, and buddy bubbles, You leave nothing for the little guy to defend himself. The 5 level rule will destroy them. there isn't all that much difference between a level 10 and a level 15, but there is a huge difference between a level 25 and a 30. You are going to make it impossible for a new player to ever advance in the game, and all they will be is somebody's farm.... While I don't want to coddle the new people, They must have a chance, or they will not play. and if new people don't play, this game will die.
    Current Level 63
    I don't understand your need for constant drama........its only a click to repair.
  • Xerantua
    Xerantua
    Greenhorn
    Joined Mar 2012 Posts: 1
    I don't want to sound cocky. I know a lot of people abused insta repair subs to get on other peoples nerves but to be quite honest them being under water, they still can and anybody denying what I'm gonna say now is either payed by Kixeye or Kixeye himself. The only use in changing subs from insta repair is to get people to put more money into the game and push the credit buying ahead and so I find it absolutely crap what the most of the people are saying here about makes no difference because subs can't be hit. Of course they can't unless BETA-version Battle pirates glitches again during raids and so on. I'm growing a little tired of This game only being changed in intrest of Kixeye earning more money and the players real issues ignored. This is nor real improvement in my opinion. If you see it otherwise, please state your opinion and give a good reason for me to change my mind...
  • Rasta
    Rasta
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Sep 2011 Posts: 115
    Xerantua wrote: »
    I don't want to sound cocky. I know a lot of people abused insta repair subs to get on other peoples nerves but to be quite honest them being under water, they still can and anybody denying what I'm gonna say now is either payed by KIXEYE or KIXEYE himself. The only use in changing subs from insta repair is to get people to put more money into the game and push the credit buying ahead and so I find it absolutely crap what the most of the people are saying here about makes no difference because subs can't be hit. Of course they can't unless BETA-version Battle pirates glitches again during raids and so on. I'm growing a little tired of This game only being changed in intrest of KIXEYE earning more money and the players real issues ignored. This is nor real improvement in my opinion. If you see it otherwise, please state your opinion and give a good reason for me to change my mind...


    I couldnt agree more! Every time they make a change it is designed to put more money in their pocket and they pass it off as fixing "abuse". What a load of crap that is! Their only measure of so called abuse is their bank account.

    Personally I could care less about subs but I do feel they are important to keep the lil guy involved while he grows his account. Subs are about as much bother as a swarm of flies but those flies are important to an ankle biter to get back at a high level player that is slumming on the lowest bases he can hit.

    Instant repair or a couple minutes makes little or no difference to the wimps that complain about subs attacking their fleets. This change makes a big difference to KIXEYE's cash flow tho and that is the ONLY reason for their "fixing the abuse" line. Hey KIXEYE, how about fixing the instant repair glitch ya morons!
  • donutguy
    donutguy
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Apr 2011 Posts: 118
    I still use my subs on occasion, but it's been a much longer time since I've insta repaired them, now I just repair them to 2hp

    it doesn't take that much longer they're already 1-hit kills, most the time, so IMO it's a waste of resources to repair them all the way
    Xerantua wrote: »
    I don't want to sound cocky. I know a lot of people abused insta repair subs to get on other peoples nerves but to be quite honest them being under water, they still can and anybody denying what I'm gonna say now is either payed by Kixeye or Kixeye himself. The only use in changing subs from insta repair is to get people to put more money into the game and push the credit buying ahead and so I find it absolutely crap what the most of the people are saying here about makes no difference because subs can't be hit. Of course they can't unless BETA-version Battle pirates glitches again during raids and so on. I'm growing a little tired of This game only being changed in intrest of Kixeye earning more money and the players real issues ignored. This is nor real improvement in my opinion. If you see it otherwise, please state your opinion and give a good reason for me to change my mind...
    Xerantua, I agree about their motives, and REALLY wish they'd fix actual bugs (especially the ones here)...but this time in particular, I don't think it'll be a bad change...maybe, I dunno...either way, though, it wont affect me, since I only repair them to 2hp anyway I figure they're 1 hit kills anyway, and it's a waste of resources to repair them fully, regardless of the time involved
  • Capt Rye
    Capt Rye
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Feb 2012 Posts: 231
    As a sub user I'm indifferent about the change, I rarely take damage and at least all the threads 'moaning' about subs being instant repair will cease now.
    ExRaided wrote: »
    Which one of you dirty asshat pirates stole my plugin?
  • Hellspawn
    Hellspawn
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Sep 2011 Posts: 988
    I feel that this will disadvantage the lower players as a lot of them use subs to salvage

    I disagree. I think it will just put the low level players back in their place. There is no reason that a player who hasn't even researched Battle Barges yet should be able to destroy a lvl 9 salvage fleet with no consequences to themselves. There needs to be some sort of actual damage factor for that. As a lvl 32 player, I can take a lvl 9 salvage with no damage, but I have put in the time, researched the tech, and earned that spot. I shouldn't be competing against players 10-15 levels below me (whatever level a player who is just up to Predators is) for lvl 8-9 salvage fleets. I think that either the armor should be increased or the repair time should be modified for them to increase it without increasing the base armor. The other thing we don't want is to increase the armor value and make them more powerful than they should be for their level. An increase to maybe 400 or so at max. And as far as I know, there is already a modifier to the repair time, I believe that should remain.
  • Capt Mal Reynolds
    Capt Mal Reynolds
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Jan 2012 Posts: 214
    the predator submarines currently have a base armor value of 80. This means that if predators are not equipped with any additional armor and have small flagship, they can instant repair. After several months of seeing how the predator is being used in combat, we feel that they should not be able to instant repair.

    We will be buffing the base armor value of predator submarines to ensure that no fleet combination of “4 predators + a small flagship” will allow for an instant repair time.

    i love you swag <3

    Now you can luxuriate in a nice jail cell, but if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet: I will end you.

  • No..Beard
    No..Beard
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Jun 2010 Posts: 3,792
    Burke wrote: »
    What about raids? Taking away the 5 minute speedup during raids would reinforce the trend that prior winners of the raid hulls get a huge advantage and others are increasingly barred from breaking in to get the buffed raid hulls. Also, high level players at the moment have had the benefit of the 5 minute speedup for a year now.

    Maybe tweak instant repair some, like a 1 minute per ship delay after say 20 ships in an hour. That should put a real dent in the instant-repair spamming you refer to. However, I don't think that's as big a problem as a small handful of people are making it out to be. I have been playing for a year and I have seen it used twice, months ago by me, both times against people who were subsequently banned for hacking. It's deadly boring and if the attacker has much skill, it seems like they can attack the base with enough ships to get past guard fleets anyway. And, as has been noted before in those "how dare lower level players use guard fleets" threads, you can always come back and flatten the base when they're offline (assuming some reform of the bubble rules is put in place).

    Sub spamming is fundamentally different than, say, marauder spamming because the subs have nearly perfect defense when submerged, so they can usually get off a shot or two and wear down attackers. The 4 seconds per armor point repair cost for them (if I remember correctly) should offset a lot of that, but maybe a tweak is in order.
    ...snip...
    Thank you for actually reading rather than skimming and protesting :rolleyes:

    I wasn't 'married' to the exact 'three minute cooldown' or '10 per hour' numbers, as they would need some testing and tweaking for balance. I have seen a lot of abuse, and it is not just base defense. A-holes are using it to harrass salvagers, miners, and any other still target on the map. I agree it must be deadly boring to most, but somehow some players never seem to tire of it.

    If you did a ten-minute speedup (for ships ONLY) c/w a five minute cooldown between uses, you would have theoretically the same speedup you have now, and kill the spammers overnight.
    If there is an issue with 'level 30 should not be able to base attack a level 25', then address THAT directly, rather than leaving repair-spamming in place.

    Works for raids too.*

    *There's a reason why getting the top quota prize is hard for low level players. It is supposed to be. Assuming KE adds it 6 months later as a bp, then they can get it when they are high enough a level to need it.

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  • Digger Jones
    Digger Jones
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 1,393
    Removal of instant repair ships? Wow. Impressive....

    Subs being instant repair.. ok.. remove that fine.. but what about the SW's? during RAIDs they are instant repair so are a lot of others. However they have specials designed for them alone. Subs have none, just the generic ones.

    Seriously is there that much whining from players who get hit by subs often?
    Sunk a DreadX with a Frigate.. I'm not bothered about what you have.. I'll find the smallest thing to take it out.
  • Heather Robinson
    Heather Robinson
    Greenhorn
    Joined Feb 2012 Posts: 6
    You will get there Heather ;) It just takes time and patience as in all things :) One trick I used at your lvl to save up resources was picking a research i didn't "need" yet to hide resources in over night, and when I came on I'd cancel the research and keep collecting. For instance the DU I-III researches all work well for this as DU IV should be the key objective for armor both for fleets and base defense. Hope some of these tips help ya as well as maybe some of the other low lvl's out there going "oh whoa is me!!! **** YOU KIXEYE!!!" LOL ;)

    Thank You you have helped alot and i do appriciate everything. I know i will get there some day. lol:D
    Nice to know there are some nice helpful people out there:)
  • Hast at work
    Hast at work
    Master Tactician
    Joined Feb 2012 Posts: 2,308
    Removal of instant repair ships? Wow. Impressive....

    Subs being instant repair.. ok.. remove that fine.. but what about the SW's? during RAIDs they are instant repair so are a lot of others. However they have specials designed for them alone. Subs have none, just the generic ones.

    Seriously is there that much whining from players who get hit by subs often?

    So what if SW are instant repair during raids. Subs will be too "During Raids". Subs are getting a buff, the only reason to complain is if you were abusing their instant repair.
    Base Name: Praetor [Locust]
    Current Level: 63 Current Sector: Pansyland
    Raid Hulls: All of them, yes, all of them.
    Oh and we didn't do it for money.
  • Papadopoulos Kyriakos
    Papadopoulos Kyriakos
    Potential Threat
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 37
    You should , also put more speed to subs, since you cuting down the instant repair...Subs are good defnsive weapon, for small players. plus, you should cut the cost in resources for the repairs of subs.
  • duke259
    duke259
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Jan 2012 Posts: 156
    make the subs better
  • KIXEYE Swag
    KIXEYE Swag
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 3,665
    Azmodan wrote: »
    I'm new to the forums, but I just had to post on this. I'm one of the sub using cry babies. If you take away the instant sub repair, and buddy bubbles, You leave nothing for the little guy to defend himself. The 5 level rule will destroy them. there isn't all that much difference between a level 10 and a level 15, but there is a huge difference between a level 25 and a 30. You are going to make it impossible for a new player to ever advance in the game, and all they will be is somebody's farm.... While I don't want to coddle the new people, They must have a chance, or they will not play. and if new people don't play, this game will die.

    Our intention is not to declaw defenses, rather to balance the game appropriately. The intention of instant repair is to help new players get into the game faster, not endlessly be able to assault level 10 salvage ships. Again with DP, only a small percentage were using it as intended.

    However, we have also buffed defense by giving turret specials and the upcoming patrol fleet. It's all a delicate balancing act.
  • Munchy
    Munchy
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Jan 2011 Posts: 800
    Our intention is not to declaw defenses, rather to balance the game appropriately. The intention of instant repair is to help new players get into the game faster, not endlessly be able to assault level 10 salvage ships. Again with DP, only a small percentage were using it as intended.

    However, we have also buffed defense by giving turret specials and the upcoming patrol fleet. It's all a delicate balancing act.

    It may not be your intention, but it is what you are doing. A patrol fleet from a level 25 player base won't do much to stop a player who is level 30. The turret specials are great, but they don't help small players as the specials are not addable until the turret level 3, which requires T3 armor. Not exactly an early player tech.

    If you are going to nerf the sub in this respect, buff it in some other way..probably increased speed or another special slot.(and those who say this is not a nerf, stop..you know it is too as it takes away an important ability of the sub).
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  • George Brown
    George Brown
    Potential Threat
    Joined Nov 2011 Posts: 87
    This should not effect the salvagers that use subs. I exclusively used subs to salvage until I got my SW missile fleet built and took up to and including lvl 9 salvages with no damage to my subs. If you get sloppy and get hit there should be a consequence.
  • Chris Gorsuch
    Chris Gorsuch
    Potential Threat
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 81
    the instant repair is all the subs have going for em you take it away and ill personally stop using them and make my build infamous no missle no mortar heavy dps and high speed as it is all i use the preds for are level 8s and higher and all those crying about subs are prolly the ones using the missles and that if they to stuck on long range to realize that there are missles that shoot underwater they wouldnt be complaining about subs it would be somthing else myself personally i like fighting the subs the way they are and will take them out if brought to my base everytime but then im sure anyone who has striker d51L would say the same thing so idk i guess ill be seeing where this games gonna go in the next few weeks
    captain
  • Chris Gorsuch
    Chris Gorsuch
    Potential Threat
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 81
    a buff really how is taking somthing away adding to it sounds like a nerf to me watch em wind up like city of heroes most of their players leaving due to nerfs you kinda sound like one of the guys crying cause you cant figure out **** them its easy stikers hit underwater go find a set and use sonar on em
    captain
  • Fractal
    Fractal
    Master Tactician
    Joined Mar 2012 Posts: 2,408
    Hellspawn wrote: »
    I disagree. I think it will just put the low level players back in their place. There is no reason that a player who hasn't even researched Battle Barges yet should be able to destroy a lvl 9 salvage fleet with no consequences to themselves. There needs to be some sort of actual damage factor for that. As a lvl 32 player, I can take a lvl 9 salvage with no damage, but I have put in the time, researched the tech, and earned that spot. I shouldn't be competing against players 10-15 levels below me (whatever level a player who is just up to Predators is) for lvl 8-9 salvage fleets. I think that either the armor should be increased or the repair time should be modified for them to increase it without increasing the base armor. The other thing we don't want is to increase the armor value and make them more powerful than they should be for their level. An increase to maybe 400 or so at max. And as far as I know, there is already a modifier to the repair time, I believe that should remain.

    I have decent success taking level 8's and even managing a couple 9's now with subs. But it certainly isn't an easy deal. One mistake, bad timing, over confidence, bad night, and the whole fleet is toast. Sure we can take the big salvages, but only with a good amount of practice. That same practice teaches us the skills we can use later with the bigger ships.

    Besides, the more resources us little guys can fill our warehouses with, the more there will be for you bigger ones to farm. :)
    Playing since Feb 2012.  Originally sector 304
  • randy327
    randy327
    Potential Threat
    Joined Sep 2011 Posts: 71
    It's ok ill scrap them of yall do that can't carry any recourse any ways
    Oneeyedjack
    Lvl 31
    User ID. 971655
  • Lois
    Lois
    Master Tactician
    Joined Dec 2011 Posts: 2,124
    Fractal wrote: »
    I have decent success taking level 8's and even managing a couple 9's now with subs. But it certainly isn't an easy deal. One mistake, bad timing, over confidence, bad night, and the whole fleet is toast. Sure we can take the big salvages, but only with a good amount of practice. That same practice teaches us the skills we can use later with the bigger ships.

    Besides, the more resources us little guys can fill our warehouses with, the more there will be for you bigger ones to farm. :)

    I completely agree. Learning to use subs helps is a big step with learning to micro. But they aren't scrapping subs entirely only making them unable to instant repair. Lower levels will still be able to crack level 7-8-9 salvages but without having the gift of endless repairs, which I guess if the thing that annoys higher levels, fighting a sub fleet with a 12 hour repair base fleet, and knowing they go back and instant repair, while you're stuck with hours of repair, even if you win.
    LadyLois
This discussion has been closed.