Daemon Bug Fixes

CM Dade Murphy
CM Dade Murphy
KIXEYE Community Manager
Joined May 2015 Posts: 272
edited 5 Apr 2019, 8:31PM

Rebels,

Reports on the Daemon Battleship have surfaced, and we’d like to take the opportunity to follow up and provide additional context. Potential future changes to the Daemon were announced in the CM Diary, but the changes in this last game update were not the potential changes previously mentioned - we likely will not be making many, if any, changes to the Daemon in the future now that we’ve discovered the Daemon’s incorrect functionality from when it was released. The Anthracite Munitions special and Volatile Fuel special can stack, and this will be removed at a later date, but this is the only planned change. We’ve tracked down the bug fixes that were added - all bugs listed below are regarding erroneous Battleship stats:

  • Collision Radius was set to match other battleships (same as Ogre)

  • Rear speed (backing up while facing forwards) was reduced to Battleship speeds

  • Acceleration was reduced, and is now in line with Battleships

  • Sector Speed was reduced to 240AU/h

Thank you for your understanding, and if questions come up, please feel free to bring them up here.



  • BaronVonAlex
    BaronVonAlex
    Greenhorn
    Joined Dec 2015 Posts: 14
    weed420
    image
  • Daniel Rose
    Daniel Rose
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Jul 2016 Posts: 951
    @CS Dade Murphy Why weren't these bug fixes mentioned in the downtime notes when other fixes were? Were there any other bug fixes that were left out of the notes that we just haven't noticed yet? What steps are going to be taken to ensure that all changes and fixes are included in the downtime notes in the future? You broke our trust, now it's time to restore it.
    Please, if you are going to reply to my posts, do not make the mistake of attacking me personally instead of my arguments. By the same token, do
    not take anything I reply as an attack on you personally. I bear no ill will towards anyone.

  • eriq02
    eriq02
    Greenhorn
    Joined Oct 2016 Posts: 8

    @CS Dade Murphy In my opinion the problem at the daemon wasn't the acceleration, the problem was the maximum speed.
    The Pharmakon streng was the relocation of the ship and the DoT. With setting down the acceleration you guys has "destroyed" the Daemon.

    I've compared an mke Daemon with an mk1 Daemon on the battlefield. The result was, that the mke Daemon has layed one shiplengh more back in phase than the mk1. I dont know how the phase buffer will work together with the Daemon, but now the Daemon is to weak for a normal pvp fight with mixed fleets.

    Thank you for reading. The nerf was the right choise to balance the RPS-system. Thank you for that and have a nice day.

    With best regards
    Eriq02

  • Paul Crowe58
    Paul Crowe58
    Greenhorn
    Joined Jun 2016 Posts: 8
    you say you have fixed the accelleration but from what i have seen and tested myself once they are cloaked now they hardly get any speed bonus at all not the 200% that is told in the phased description.

    while i realise they were very OP because of it i think further tweaks may need to be made as alot of people in game have noticed a drastic change and in some cases they dont even notice that the daemon when phased is going any quicker.

    strafing seems to remain the same boost as it was before but turning and phased speed no longer reflects the stated bonus at elite 

  • RedFish2525
    RedFish2525
    Potential Threat
    Joined Nov 2016 Posts: 65
    Okay, I'm having problems with the terminology here, was this a nerf or a bug fix? If it's a bug fix then say so and carry on. You can't argue with a bug fix. Battleships have battleship stats since the Great Rebalance. Up until this post this is what we had about the Daemon and it's relative OPness:

    "Daemon Battleship
    Concerns on the Daemon’s power level have been floated up, mainly regarding Ship Speed during phasing, lengthy Pharmakon vs Pharmakon battles, a lack of counters to the hull, and overall how the Renascence performs compared to the Daemon. While Altairians have an edge over Pharmakon and Battleships have an edge over Battlecruisers, the Daemon’s ability to outpace the Renascence has been a main concern. We’re taking a second look at the hull for minor tweaks to keep the hull powerful but also meet the power level expectations as defined by the PRS cycle, and hull class considerations. Keep an eye out for changes in the April game update!"

    There's nothing there about the ship being bugged, just that it might be too powerful and unbalanced against it's counter. Here I'll fix it for you:

    Daemon Battleship
    Concerns on the Daemon’s power level have been floated up, mainly regarding Ship Speed during phasing, lengthy Pharmakon vs Pharmakon battles, a lack of counters to the hull, and overall how the Renascence performs compared to the Daemon. Unfortunately, the high power level of the Daemon is due to incorrect hitbox, speed, and acceleration values in the code for a battleship class ship. They were not intended by the game team and will have a negative impact on the RPS cycle going forward so we will be changing them in the next downtime. We apologize for the error, but in the long term having the Daemon filling it's proper place in the meta will bring about a richer and more interesting player experience when future content comes into the game. Keep an eye out for more changes in the April game update!

    I'm not a fan of nerfs. Nerfs are bad. Nerfs are a lever of last resport. Nerfs rarely make a game better. Furthermore, nerfing feels twice as bad to a player as a corresponding buff feels good (there's Science to back that up). However, I understand bug fixes. I can forgive them to a point. Just be honest with us and Communicate. You'll save yourself a lot of headaches and backlash.
  • kitikods
    kitikods
    Greenhorn
    Joined Jun 2017 Posts: 2

    But, What about Weapon speed.
    I mean Antrocit plasma (+25% speed) no worked, because without deactiv phase sheld (+50% speed)
    very slow!!!
    What happened?

  • kitikods
    kitikods
    Greenhorn
    Joined Jun 2017 Posts: 2

    @kitikods said:

    SORRY
    But, What about Weapon speed. I mean Antracit plasma (+25% speed) no worked, because without deactivate phase shield (+50% speed) very slow!!! What happened?

  • arcadia808
    arcadia808
    Potential Threat
    Joined Jul 2015 Posts: 37

    @Daniel Rose said:
    @CS Dade Murphy Why weren't these bug fixes mentioned in the downtime notes when other fixes were? Were there any other bug fixes that were left out of the notes that we just haven't noticed yet? What steps are going to be taken to ensure that all changes and fixes are included in the downtime notes in the future? You broke our trust, now it's time to restore it.

    This ain't the first time kixeye has done this and it won't be the last. The list is far too long. One would think, and in our case hope, that after the massive player exodus that they would change.

  • Cyrus Leung
    Cyrus Leung
    VC Mod
    Joined Jan 2013 Posts: 3,609
    Okay, I'm having problems with the terminology here, was this a nerf or a bug fix? If it's a bug fix then say so and carry on. You can't argue with a bug fix. Battleships have battleship stats since the Great Rebalance. Up until this post this is what we had about the Daemon and it's relative OPness:

    "Daemon Battleship
    Concerns on the Daemon’s power level have been floated up, mainly regarding Ship Speed during phasing, lengthy Pharmakon vs Pharmakon battles, a lack of counters to the hull, and overall how the Renascence performs compared to the Daemon. While Altairians have an edge over Pharmakon and Battleships have an edge over Battlecruisers, the Daemon’s ability to outpace the Renascence has been a main concern. We’re taking a second look at the hull for minor tweaks to keep the hull powerful but also meet the power level expectations as defined by the PRS cycle, and hull class considerations. Keep an eye out for changes in the April game update!"

    There's nothing there about the ship being bugged, just that it might be too powerful and unbalanced against it's counter. Here I'll fix it for you:

    Daemon Battleship
    Concerns on the Daemon’s power level have been floated up, mainly regarding Ship Speed during phasing, lengthy Pharmakon vs Pharmakon battles, a lack of counters to the hull, and overall how the Renascence performs compared to the Daemon. Unfortunately, the high power level of the Daemon is due to incorrect hitbox, speed, and acceleration values in the code for a battleship class ship. They were not intended by the game team and will have a negative impact on the RPS cycle going forward so we will be changing them in the next downtime. We apologize for the error, but in the long term having the Daemon filling it's proper place in the meta will bring about a richer and more interesting player experience when future content comes into the game. Keep an eye out for more changes in the April game update!

    I'm not a fan of nerfs. Nerfs are bad. Nerfs are a lever of last resport. Nerfs rarely make a game better. Furthermore, nerfing feels twice as bad to a player as a corresponding buff feels good (there's Science to back that up). However, I understand bug fixes. I can forgive them to a point. Just be honest with us and Communicate. You'll save yourself a lot of headaches and backlash.
    It is a bug fix. The CM was not aware of the bug at the time he posted the CM Diary. Back when the Daemon Battleship's sector speed was corrected (at the end of February), I noted that the collision box, acceleration and rear speed have yet to be fixed, so I contacted Leonis dlrectly about it (evidence below). I knew that a fix was coming but was not told when - in fact, I was initially confused right after the latest downtime (other Discord users can confirm), until I remembered.



  • RedFish2525
    RedFish2525
    Potential Threat
    Joined Nov 2016 Posts: 65

    Thank you for the clarification Cyrus. I think the larger point still remains though. The CMs post could have been, should have been, amended or expanded between then and the downtime.

  • Money Mike
    Money Mike
    Potential Threat
    Joined Nov 2015 Posts: 57

    This is not a bug fix... stop lying to us...I strait up saw on VEGA discord in suggestions that many thought the daemon was over powered.... too fast too much dps etc.... it was strait up nerfed because noobs were crying in discord... remember how kix almost nerfed the tyrant because of those cry babies...

  • moist4u
    moist4u
    Greenhorn
    Joined Jan 2019 Posts: 14

    This is not a bug fix... stop lying to us...I strait up saw on VEGA discord in suggestions that many thought the daemon was over powered.... too fast too much dps etc.... it was strait up nerfed because noobs were crying in discord... remember how kix almost nerfed the tyrant because of those cry babies...

    This & the simple fact kix didn't like how well the daemon could farm everything! but they'll never admit it.
  • Lee Van Cleef
    Lee Van Cleef
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Mar 2016 Posts: 220
    nice, i builded 5 obsolete ships
  • zakardonec76
    zakardonec76
    Greenhorn
    Joined Dec 2014 Posts: 1
     А СМЫСЛ ТАКОГО ЛИНКОРА? ЭТО ПОЛНЫЙ ОТСТОЙ  ХЛАМ КОТОРЫЙ НЕ НУЖЕН . ТОКА ДЕНЬГИ ЗРЯ ТРАТИЛ 
    5200
  • fatcoiner
    fatcoiner
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Aug 2018 Posts: 306

    @Lee Van Cleef said:
    nice, i builded 5 obsolete ships

    Not obsolete just not overpowered anymore. I guess the idiot coiners LIKE unbalanced games.

  • fatcoiner
    fatcoiner
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Aug 2018 Posts: 306

    @Money Mike said:
    This is not a bug fix... stop lying to us...I strait up saw on VEGA discord in suggestions that many thought the daemon was over powered.... too fast too much dps etc.... it was strait up nerfed because noobs were crying in discord... remember how kix almost nerfed the tyrant because of those cry babies...

    Well we look much less like the crybabies considering your post. Youre crying way more than we supposedly did. I gave suggestions for nerfing daemon or buffing renascence. They still went with the daemon nerf because they agreed so much with it. So its not our fault. And now here you are crying like a baby that the only ship you can get kills with is not op anymore. Fact is and i cant seem to say this enough, daemon still wrecks any umbra it fights. I guess you crybabies expected it to kill everything even the ships that are supposed to kill daemon. Fact is because all the crying going on about the nerf just proves you crybabies actually like unbalanced games. Cry more it makes me laugh.

  • arcadia808
    arcadia808
    Potential Threat
    Joined Jul 2015 Posts: 37

    @CS_Dade Murphy
    Instead of nurfing the deamon you should have introduced a weapon for the battlecruiser that enables the phasing. That makes the battlecruiser a true counter and not bad joke that it is right now. But instead, you made the deamon another bad joke.

  • arcadia808
    arcadia808
    Potential Threat
    Joined Jul 2015 Posts: 37

    @fatcoiner said:

    @Lee Van Cleef said:
    nice, i builded 5 obsolete ships

    Not obsolete just not overpowered anymore. I guess the idiot coiners LIKE unbalanced games.

    Just because someone doesn't agree with your view doesn't make him an idiot. The Deamon just needed a counter not a nurf. Nurfing is the LAZY way to fix but not a solution.

  • LilBasterd
    LilBasterd
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Mar 2018 Posts: 1,712

    @CS_Dade Murphy
    Instead of nurfing the deamon you should have introduced a weapon for the battlecruiser that enables the phasing. That makes the battlecruiser a true counter and not bad joke that it is right now. But instead, you made the deamon another bad joke.

    buffing and making  a ship better, takes more effort than nerfing. That's why basically..
    Sealcorps is my biggest fan, ty Sealcorps  for always reading what i write. :)
  • arcadia808
    arcadia808
    Potential Threat
    Joined Jul 2015 Posts: 37

    @LilBasterd said:
    arcadia808 said:

    @CS_Dade Murphy

    Instead of nurfing the deamon you should have introduced a weapon for the battlecruiser that enables the phasing. That makes the battlecruiser a true counter and not bad joke that it is right now. But instead, you made the deamon another bad joke.

    buffing and making  a ship better, takes more effort than nerfing. That's why basically..

    Exactly, LAZY and MINIMAL EFFORT. That's the problem with kixeye.

  • Sequestor
    Sequestor
    Incursion Leader
    Joined Aug 2013 Posts: 1,255
    Now we need a method of manually controlling whether we want phasing-in or not during combat. When some daemons in a fleet of daemons get damaged, the whole battle strategy can break due to enemy focusing on a single ship that lost it's bonus speed sooner than other ships. I'd rather have no phasing than this.
  • coltspeed72
    coltspeed72
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Nov 2014 Posts: 496

    Easy fix for this is to have a screen cut of for phasing. Meaning max screen needed for max phasing set a certain level eg 1500, say you have 1900 screen power then your phasing will not be affected until it drops below this level.

  • coltspeed72
    coltspeed72
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Nov 2014 Posts: 496

    Can't edit on mobile.
    I mean the phasing wouldn't be affected until your screen dropped below the 1500 needed for maximum phase

  • Ka Dosh
    Ka Dosh
    Potential Threat
    Joined Sep 2015 Posts: 79

    As I said, the problem is that the "overpowered" daemon was an instrumental help for any player who was farming with low damage in payback. I remember that my Mk4-5 ogers suffered a lot against the lvl 90-110 event fleets. Since I changed themthem for my Mk2 daemons I was pleased because I received a lot of points with low damage as payback. I changed that because my niece showed me that was a better fleet and since then, we were farming a lot in 2 hours until we get bored and changed to Brown Farm, Line Rangers and Line Fighters, then to music classes for my niece. With umbra battleships the repair times were of 6 hours for every 1 hour of continued farm. With Pharmakon it was reduced to 1.2 hours for 3 hours of continued farming. Do the maths!

    Let's be honest! That was not a bug fix. That was a big BIG BIG BIG MISTAKE done by the developer to give to the players a so wonderful machine like this one. The mistake was done against Kixeye. And I understand they need to recover from this fatal incident using this meeting. I guess Kixeye has lost a lot of incomings due that big error. I hope that will not impact in the future of the game. This is a bewitch game. Of course, the game needs rebalancing for to give fun to the players and profits to the enterprise. It's time for us the players go to find new ways of receive lower damage with actual fleets. Our talented Daemon was nerfed using inverse Vulcan premise. The majority lost this time.

    What I would love to see more from Kixeye is transparency! Kix did a mistake? No problem. Just admit it and say the true that your mistake is causing a lowering in your incoming profit that could impact in the future of the company. We would understand as logical people we are. But please, don't defraud our trust in you. The good relationships are created over good values. And those good relationships get strongest while there exists open and loyal communication between the parts.

  • Ka Dosh
    Ka Dosh
    Potential Threat
    Joined Sep 2015 Posts: 79

    "This is a bewitch game" The correct is: "This is a beautiful game". I'm so sorry for my mistake of not check prior to publish!

  • Harry Dresden
    Harry Dresden
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Feb 2015 Posts: 260

    Changing things isnt making them better. Its really pissing off the people who pay and play the game. The ship was fine. Change it back and cut the bs. Stop screwing your customers over.

  • Zero Calling Elite
    Zero Calling Elite
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Jul 2013 Posts: 1,550

    Changing things isnt making them better. Its really pissing off the people who pay and play the game. The ship was fine. Change it back and cut the bs. Stop screwing your customers over.

    The ship wasn't fine when it had Cruiser stats. That made the Daemon Battleship overpowered.
    Zᴇʀᴏ Cᴀʟʟɪɴɢ ɪs ɴᴏ ᴍᴏʀᴇ. Sᴇᴇ ʏᴏᴜ ɪɴ VEGA Cᴏɴғʟɪᴄᴛ!

  • Vanguard Paladin
    Vanguard Paladin
    Greenhorn
    Joined Jul 2017 Posts: 19
    edited 10 Apr 2019, 10:05AM

    Going to be blunt here, but it’s a recurring pattern:

    • Bug or stat that makes tech better than it’s meant to be and people get used to it
    • Finally gets around to fix / nerf and people complain like it’s the end of the world / money is completely wasted
    • Tech is okay and repeats

    Obviously there are a few exceptions, but it's more important here as it's not immediately obsolete tech like past factions. This, however... just feels blown out of proportion.

    I thought it was great before, still the same after. I just kept passing onto the thought that maybe the phasing speed bonus (when it's forward boost only) influenced its other stats in some way or another. Didn’t do anything that makes it useless, but it was unusually fast, even in reverse, for a BS. You’ve probably just never noticed it due to phasing / the sheer minimal differences, and passed it off as normal, because you don’t expect any differences in the first place- until someone tells you exactly what’s wrong with it. (But like someone said above, the phase speed does feel a little botched atm, but who knows what’s going on back there now.) At worst, it’s just another battleship. At best, it’s just another battleship with OP phasing and weapon harmonies. Still one of the best farming / PvP ships out there, and if the nerf barely affects that, then it doesn't warrant this much backlash. The only people this nerf affects are people who were never really that good with handling battleships to begin with; even then, the phasing makes it super-friendly and forgiving for them than ever possible thus far. It's just that good (rewarding) of a ship.

    At most I would just say to call a fix out ahead of time and openly on the channel / patch notes so people can brace for it and adjust accordingly, because obviously there are those who adjust... very... slowly. Other cases might mean a lot of repairs for some people when there aren’t any notes about it available, which makes them reasonably upset. Or perhaps others fear their favorite super-tech will be turned into garbage (an exaggeration most of the time to try and stop the nerf in the first place). You’ll still meet resistance with even the most minor of fixes, but that’s to be expected. Even better- don't let things like this slip by in the first place. It's much better to avoid it entirely than have to deal with the "used-to-it" resistance.

  • kixeyeuser_95508391
    kixeyeuser_95508391
    Potential Threat
    Joined Oct 2013 Posts: 78
    @CS Dade Murphy Why weren't these bug fixes mentioned in the downtime notes when other fixes were? Were there any other bug fixes that were left out of the notes that we just haven't noticed yet? What steps are going to be taken to ensure that all changes and fixes are included in the downtime notes in the future? You broke our trust, now it's time to restore it.

This discussion has been closed.