Hidden Unit Stats: Revealed!

  • JamesHowlett
    JamesHowlett
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,005

    @JamesHowlett said:
    Good Friend said:

    Wrong Thinker, thanks for taking the time to provide this much data.    
    Can we convert them into one simple number to use for each unit (before workshop)?
     
    Please explain how best to use data to compare between two units,  for example,  Kara vs Sheila.

    Should we convert the data into a damage per minute assuming both would fire for a minute? Thanks

    Why would you convert it?  The info is there.

    Kara 25k per projectile and slow reload and fire rate.

    Sheila 3337 per projectile but with a much faster rate of fire and a much quicker reload.

    Kara does more DPS.  

    Sheila will benefit most by each round (projectile) doing more damage (Impact Ord) since her Reload is already quick.  Take Aim will also impact her extremely well since it adds to damage and will slow her fire rate but since it's already High that should be ok.

    Kara will benefit most by shortening her reload time (Compressed Magazine) since it will speed up the 2nd volley of projectiles doing 25k damage per projectile.  She'll also respond well to Bandolier since is will speed up her rate of fire.

    Converting to damage per minute gives you no additional information over Damage per second you just multiplied it by 60.  It won't tell you anything more than what you already knew.

    You have to take into acct Rate of Fire and Reload Time to determine how to shop units and to determine which units will do more damage to what units.  Kara for example will ALWAYS have an advantage against Preservers since she does so much damage per projectile.  -100 damage on 25k damage is nothing.  -100 damage on 3337 is a much greater percentage decrease.

    At least we have somewhat a direction to go for with our customizations.

    Absolutely!  We've needed this kind of information for ages.  But WT just provided it.  It's now our job to determine what to do with the information.  Our Calculators and this info can do just that.

    There will always be a bit of experimentation but knowing what we know now gives us the tools to make informed decisions.
    Daisy's!  I'm pushing up Daisy's!  Cause everyone loves Daisy's!  Everything is perfect in this game and I love Daisy's
  • Good Friend
    Good Friend
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Jun 2012 Posts: 323


    Converting to damage per minute gives you no additional information over Damage per second you just multiplied it by 60.  It won't tell you anything more than what you already knew.

    You have to take into acct Rate of Fire and Reload Time to determine how to shop units and to determine which units will do more damage to what units.  Kara for example will ALWAYS have an advantage against Preservers since she does so much damage per projectile.  -100 damage on 25k damage is nothing.  -100 damage on 3337 is a much greater percentage decrease.


    .
    Sorry JamesHowlett you don't understand my question.     I am not suggesting to multiple the DPS by 60 to get DPM.

    Just like you mention, damage per projectile, clip size,  rate of fire and reload time, splash etc all have to be considered. This is too much to remember for making a comparison.

     I am asking can we have a published number COMBINING ALL these factors into one easier number for comparison between units. (like you were combining Damage per projectile with projectiles per second), may be called effective damage per standardized round.
    level 43
  • JamesHowlett
    JamesHowlett
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,005


    Converting to damage per minute gives you no additional information over Damage per second you just multiplied it by 60.  It won't tell you anything more than what you already knew.

    You have to take into acct Rate of Fire and Reload Time to determine how to shop units and to determine which units will do more damage to what units.  Kara for example will ALWAYS have an advantage against Preservers since she does so much damage per projectile.  -100 damage on 25k damage is nothing.  -100 damage on 3337 is a much greater percentage decrease.


    .
    Sorry JamesHowlett you don't understand my question.     I am not suggesting to multiple the DPS by 60 to get DPM.

    Just like you mention, damage per projectile, clip size,  rate of fire and reload time, splash etc all have to be considered. This is too much to remember for making a comparison.

     I am asking can we have a published number COMBINING ALL these factors into one easier number for comparison between units. (like you were combining Damage per projectile with projectiles per second), may be called effective damage per standardized round.
    They already have.  It's called DPS (damage per second) and is shown on all units.  That is the combined factor.
    Daisy's!  I'm pushing up Daisy's!  Cause everyone loves Daisy's!  Everything is perfect in this game and I love Daisy's
  • Danny Todica
    Danny Todica
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Dec 2012 Posts: 160
    Thanks for the Info.  :)

  • Chuck149
    Chuck149
    Greenhorn
    Joined Sep 2013 Posts: 8
    Chuck149 said:
    Thank you very much for this information. It helps to clarify some misunderstandings and confusion. For example...I have been playing the game for around 3 years, and I thought that DPS stood for Damage Per Second....making the fire rate and reload speeds seem almost irrelevant. Now that I understand that it is damage per SHOT...that makes my understanding of unit damage and workshop items much clearer. Also, as soom have mentioned, a complete rundown of Turrets would be extremely helpful. The entire concept of scaling damage needs to be addressed as well. Otherwise, with a DPS of 9,933 and a 500 rate of fire, the Microwave turret would seem to be the ultimate defensive weapon, but we know that you need a mix of turrets.
    Also...why the discrepancy in the stats in this list and what is listed in game? The Marksman has a DPS of 41,836? Is that a typo? 
    This is what is frustrating about the game....units are listed as being powerful and valuable, but then seem less than impressive at times.
    I have always wanted better stats....this is really a step in the right direction and wish it was incorporated into the game a bit better.
    Actually, forgive the confusion on this point (my bad for saying Damage Per Shot, I will update the post to "Damage Per Projectile" shortly).  In-game DPS does represent Damage Per Second, but it is a result of Damage Per Projectile, Reload, Rate of Fire, and Clip Size.

    So, basically, we showed you the last part of the equation without the details.  So, in the Marksman case, their Damage Per Second (DPS) is roughly 12.7k, but their damage per shot/projectile is much higher than that (as seen above).
    Okay...I think I am beginning to understand a bit more clearly. So for all things, DPS is damage per second, and a good gauge of the power of the unit in question.....useful in determining which unit is generally superior. The other attributes - Rate of Fire, Reload Time, etc are useful for a more nuanced view of the unit. For example....a unit with a higher rate of fire or reload time is able to more quickly change targets after dispatching one., The DPS is the average damage done in one second when reload times and rate of fire are considered...but the Marksman MIGHT be able to destroy a target with a single shot even though it's DPS may not indicate it. In this case, the Damage Per Shot becomes VERY valuable information. Thank you for your work to this end.  
  • TroyW
    TroyW
    WC Mod
    Joined Jan 2013 Posts: 3,753
    edited 14 Sep 2015, 11:38PM
    Hi Commanders,

    As many of you know, our current unit information screen really isn't adequate.  You asked for some of that hidden info to be revealed to help you make the best decisions, both for components and general strategy.  Hopefully we'll get some bandwidth to improve that screen in the future, but until then, here is some of the critical unit data you've been missing.  For the time being, I'm keeping this info to core units, because to do it for all units in the game would take me until 2018.

    Please let me know if there is other information you want and I'll do my best to provide it when my time permits.

    Enjoy. :)

    -WT

    UPDATE #2
    Changed Damage Per Shot to Damage Per Projectile, since it shared an abbreviation with Damage Per Second (which is what DPS stands for in-game).  Hopefully this will be clearer.

    UPDATE #1

    There seems to be some confusion about the stats I listed, so allow me to try and clear that up.
    • Damage Per Projectile
      • The amount of damage from every projectile the unit fires (e.g. bullet, rocket, missile, etc.).
    • Clip Size
      • How many shots are fired before the unit must reload.
    • Fire Rate
      • The speed at which shots from the same clip are fired.
        • Only relevant if the clip size is greater than 1, since a clip size of 1 means the unit is constantly reloading.
    • Reload
      • The time it takes to load in a new clip, once the old clip is emptied.

    OPERATOR

    Damage Per Projectile: 949
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 20 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    LEAD OPERATOR

    Damage Per Projectile: 1898
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 20 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    HEAVY OPERATOR

    Damage Per Projectile: 720
    Clip Size: 6
    Fire Rate: 40 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    LEAD HEAVY OPERATOR

    Damage Per Projectile: 1440
    Clip Size: 6
    Fire Rate: 40 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    Flat Armor: 100

    PRESERVER

    Damage Per Projectile: 1350
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 40 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    Flat Armor: 100

    LEAD PRESERVER

    Damage Per Projectile: 1630
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 40 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    INFILTRATOR*

    Damage Per Projectile: 625
    Clip Size: 4
    Fire Rate: 2 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds
    Splash Area: 60

    LEAD INFILTRATOR*

    Damage Per Projectile: 796
    Clip Size: 4
    Fire Rate: 2 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds
    Splash Area: 60

    MARKSMEN

    Damage Per Projectile: 41836
    Clip Size: 1
    Fire Rate: N/A
    Reload: 3.25 Seconds

    WARHORSE

    Damage Per Projectile: 33000
    Clip Size: 1
    Fire Rate: N/A
    Reload: 1 Second

    NIGHTMARE

    Damage Per Projectile: 3775
    Clip Size: 4
    Fire Rate: 2 / Second
    Reload: 0.5 Seconds
    Splash Area: 80

    HELLHOUND

    Damage Per Projectile: 23152
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 2.667 / Second
    Reload: 3 Seconds

    SHEILA

    Damage Per Projectile: 3337
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 20 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    BROTHER JEREMIAH

    Damage Per Projectile: 4000
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 20 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    Flat Armor: 100
    Flat Armor Bonus to all Allied Sentinels within a Moderate Radius: 100

    KARA

    Damage Per Projectile: 25750
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 4 / Second
    Reload: 2 Seconds

    SARKIS*

    Damage Per Projectile: 47625
    Clip Size: 1
    Fire Rate: N/A
    Reload: 2 Seconds
    Splash Area: 80

    *For the time being, only Primary weapon information is provided.  Secondary weapon info will come when time permits.

     Are these numbers OFFICIAL - meaning Kixeye gave them to you or do these come from you observing and testing????

    By the way you have one of the Flat Armor figures on the Lead Heavy Operator - Should be on the Lead Preserver.

    WAR COMMANDER WIKIA

     Lead Administrator

  • JamesHowlett
    JamesHowlett
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,005
    Troy. WT is Kixeye. He's the new guy in charge of a ton of programming. I trust his numbers.
    Daisy's!  I'm pushing up Daisy's!  Cause everyone loves Daisy's!  Everything is perfect in this game and I love Daisy's
  • Sun_Tzu
    Sun_Tzu
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Sep 2012 Posts: 202
    Nice!  Thanks for the info!
  • Good Friend
    Good Friend
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Jun 2012 Posts: 323
    With all due respect, and I do think this is a good start / helpful, that still looks confusing as ****.

    Can someoen explain, corelation between "Damage per shot" , Fire rate/second , and the clip size ? i think i got confused here :) thank you
    I certainly agree that this would help clarify some of those numbers a lot better. 
    damage per shot / projectile is new info.  it makes sense for maxed level, not sure how each level is determined.

     damage per minute = damage per shot x shots per minute 
    shots per minute = clips per minute x clip size
    clips per minute = 60 seconds  /  seconds per clip cycle
    seconds per clip     reload and firing cycle = reload seconds per clip  +  (clip size / fire rate)

     example:   Lead operator:
     seconds per clip cylcle =0.35 + (3/20) = 0.35+ 0.15 =0.50 seconds 
     clips per minute = 60 / 0.50 = 120 clips
     shots per minute =120 clips x 3 = 360 shots
     damage per minute = 1898 x 360 = 683,280
     damage per second = 683,280 /60 = 11,388  <<< for the max level.

      


    level 43
  • JamesHowlett
    JamesHowlett
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,005
    With all due respect, and I do think this is a good start / helpful, that still looks confusing as ****.

    Can someoen explain, corelation between "Damage per shot" , Fire rate/second , and the clip size ? i think i got confused here :) thank you
    I certainly agree that this would help clarify some of those numbers a lot better. 
    damage per shot / projectile is new info.  it makes sense for maxed level, not sure how each level is determined.

     damage per minute = damage per shot x shots per minute 
    shots per minute = clips per minute x clip size
    clips per minute = 60 seconds  /  seconds per clip cycle
    seconds per clip     reload and firing cycle = reload seconds per clip  +  (clip size / fire rate)

     example:   Lead operator:
     seconds per clip cylcle =0.35 + (3/20) = 0.35+ 0.15 =0.50 seconds 
     clips per minute = 60 / 0.50 = 120 clips
     shots per minute =120 clips x 3 = 360 shots
     damage per minute = 1898 x 360 = 683,280
     damage per second = 683,280 /60 = 11,388  <<< for the max level.

      


    The rate of fire is not changed, nor is the reload speed per lvl of the unit.  What changes is the DPP (Damage per Projectile).  As the lvl of the unit increases the DPP increases.  I'll need WT to confirm that but I cannot imagine all three are changing to get to the new DPS.  That would be a nightmare to code all three per lvl.

    And Good Friend you clearly have a handle on the math.  I'm not sure what more you are looking for as far as details.
    Daisy's!  I'm pushing up Daisy's!  Cause everyone loves Daisy's!  Everything is perfect in this game and I love Daisy's
  • TroyW
    TroyW
    WC Mod
    Joined Jan 2013 Posts: 3,753
    Troy. WT is Kixeye. He's the new guy in charge of a ton of programming. I trust his numbers.
    Oh I thought all employees had the Red Kixeye Icon so I thought he was just a moderator but now I see his bottom signature. 

    Thanks

    WAR COMMANDER WIKIA

     Lead Administrator

  • MMD-MMD
    MMD-MMD
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Apr 2013 Posts: 587
    Still confused between the co-relations of fire rate per seconds  and Clip side. 
    If a SF have 3 clip side and 20 fire rate per seconds, does it mean that the  SF will shoot 3 clip-reload-and fire 3 clip again  close to seven times (3X7=21) per seconds?
  • TroyW
    TroyW
    WC Mod
    Joined Jan 2013 Posts: 3,753
    edited 15 Sep 2015, 6:00AM
    Some other hidden stats for a few of those units.


    WARHORSE : 
    • The Warhorse gains vXP from qualified enemy forces & defenses
      • The Warhorse gains vXP at a rate of 50% of the Damage Dealt 
      • The Warhorse gains vXP at a rate of 50% of the Damage Received
    • The Warhorse is resistant to the Shock ( Shock-ICON ) Status Effect
      • Reduces the Shock duration by approximately ??% -- still need to test this one
    • The Warhorse is resistant to the Land Mines ( ShapeCharge-Icon )
      • Reduces damage from all Land Mines by 60%
      • Sustains damage equal to 16% of its Full Heath for every Shape Charge.
    • The Warhorse at Rank 20 requires 1 minute of Repairs for every approximately 2,213 Damage it sustains. 

    NIGHTMARE
    • The Nightmare gains vXP from qualified enemy forces & defenses
      • The Nightmare gains vXP at a rate of 50% of the Damage Dealt 
      • The Nightmare gains vXP at a rate of 50% of the Damage Received
    • The Nightmare is resistant to the Shock Shock-ICON ) Status Effect
      • Reduces the Shock duration by approximately 70% 
    • The Warhorse is resistant to the Land Mines ShapeCharge-Icon )
      • Reduces damage from all Land Mines by 60%
      • Sustains damage equal to 16% of its Full Heath for every Shape Charge.
    • The Warhorse at Rank 20 requires 1 minute of Repairs for every approximately 2,130 Damage it sustains. 

    WAR COMMANDER WIKIA

     Lead Administrator

  • WrongThinker
    WrongThinker
    BP Game Team
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 1,705
    edited 15 Sep 2015, 6:17AM
    So can we now assume DPP (Damage Per Projectile) is going to be used from now on to describe this function?  I still think DPR Damage Per Round sounds better ;-)

    Or is there another reason you chose this nomenclature?   
    DPR does sound a little better, I agree.  The reason I chose DPP is because I think projectile is a broader term: it could mean missile or grenade or bullet.  I feel like "round" doesn't aptly apply to all those things.  That said, if everyone prefers DPR, that's fine with me.  I think either is acceptable.
    TroyW said:
    Are these numbers OFFICIAL - meaning Kixeye gave them to you or do these come from you observing and testing????

    By the way you have one of the Flat Armor figures on the Lead Heavy Operator - Should be on the Lead Preserver.
    I pulled them right outta the raw data sheets, so they're about as official as they can get.  It's always possible I misread a line or that there is a typo, but it all looks legit to me.

    Also, thanks for the call out, you are (of course) correct that the flat armor belongs on the Lead Preserver.  It has been corrected.
    Troy. WT is Kixeye. He's the new guy in charge of a ton of programming. I trust his numbers.
    Minor correction, sir.  I am one of the designers.  I am not nearly good enough at calculus or trig to be an engineer. :)
    MMD-MMD said:
    Still confused between the co-relations of fire rate per seconds  and Clip side. 
    If a SF have 3 clip side and 20 fire rate per seconds, does it mean that the  SF will shoot 3 clip-reload-and fire 3 clip again  close to seven times (3X7=21) per seconds?
    Keep in mind when the clip empties, the reload must occur.  So, the 3 bullets in the clip are fired at a rate of 20 per second, but then the 0.35 reload time must occur.  The result is about 9 bullets fired in about a second.  Many of our new units utilize a small clip size (like 3) to simulate "burst fire" which is common for maintaining accuracy.
    Lead Designer - Battle Pirates
    KIXEYE
  • Daniel Holmes
    Daniel Holmes
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Aug 2012 Posts: 6,285
    With all due respect, and I do think this is a good start / helpful, that still looks confusing as ****.

    Can someoen explain, corelation between "Damage per shot" , Fire rate/second , and the clip size ? i think i got confused here :) thank you
    I certainly agree that this would help clarify some of those numbers a lot better. 
    damage per shot / projectile is new info.  it makes sense for maxed level, not sure how each level is determined.

     damage per minute = damage per shot x shots per minute 
    shots per minute = clips per minute x clip size
    clips per minute = 60 seconds  /  seconds per clip cycle
    seconds per clip     reload and firing cycle = reload seconds per clip  +  (clip size / fire rate)

     example:   Lead operator:
     seconds per clip cylcle =0.35 + (3/20) = 0.35+ 0.15 =0.50 seconds 
     clips per minute = 60 / 0.50 = 120 clips
     shots per minute =120 clips x 3 = 360 shots
     damage per minute = 1898 x 360 = 683,280
     damage per second = 683,280 /60 = 11,388  <<< for the max level.

      


    Thanks, I think, for the help. 

    But that is also why he cleared my post off since he had reformatted and adjusted the original post drastically since my initial comment.

    Looks like a few in the Kixeye towers can take and use constructive criticism lol.
    Sorry about whenever I talk in all Caps. I am not yelling at you. It's just a thing me and my guys do on WC, Got to get the natives stirred up somehow in this Turtle Commander game we all play now, and usually playing the game alone doesn't do it.
  • warinwar
    warinwar
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Jan 2014 Posts: 764
    Great information - it really does help understanding the behavior of the units and their customizations!
  • GameRoom
    GameRoom
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Mar 2014 Posts: 691
    Hi Commanders,

    As many of you know, our current unit information screen really isn't adequate.  You asked for some of that hidden info to be revealed to help you make the best decisions, both for components and general strategy.  Hopefully we'll get some bandwidth to improve that screen in the future, but until then, here is some of the critical unit data you've been missing.  For the time being, I'm keeping this info to Core Units at level 20, because to do it for all units at all levels in the game would take me until 2018.

    Please let me know if there is other information you want and I'll do my best to provide it when my time permits.

    Enjoy. :)

    -WT

    UPDATE #2
    Changed Damage Per Shot to Damage Per Projectile, since it shared an abbreviation with Damage Per Second (which is what DPS stands for in-game).  Hopefully this will be clearer.

    UPDATE #1

    There seems to be some confusion about the stats I listed, so allow me to try and clear that up.
    • Damage Per Projectile
      • The amount of damage from every projectile the unit fires (e.g. bullet, rocket, missile, etc.).
    • Clip Size
      • How many shots are fired before the unit must reload.
    • Fire Rate
      • The speed at which shots from the same clip are fired.
        • Only relevant if the clip size is greater than 1, since a clip size of 1 means the unit is constantly reloading.
    • Reload
      • The time it takes to load in a new clip, once the old clip is emptied.

    OPERATOR

    Damage Per Projectile: 949
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 20 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    LEAD OPERATOR

    Damage Per Projectile: 1898
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 20 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    HEAVY OPERATOR

    Damage Per Projectile: 720
    Clip Size: 6
    Fire Rate: 40 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    LEAD HEAVY OPERATOR

    Damage Per Projectile: 1440
    Clip Size: 6
    Fire Rate: 40 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    PRESERVER

    Damage Per Projectile: 1350
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 40 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    Flat Armor: 100

    LEAD PRESERVER

    Damage Per Projectile: 1630
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 40 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    Flat Armor: 100

    INFILTRATOR*

    Damage Per Projectile: 625
    Clip Size: 4
    Fire Rate: 2 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds
    Splash Area: 60

    LEAD INFILTRATOR*

    Damage Per Projectile: 796
    Clip Size: 4
    Fire Rate: 2 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds
    Splash Area: 60

    MARKSMEN

    Damage Per Projectile: 41836
    Clip Size: 1
    Fire Rate: N/A
    Reload: 3.25 Seconds

    WARHORSE

    Damage Per Projectile: 33000
    Clip Size: 1
    Fire Rate: N/A
    Reload: 1 Second

    NIGHTMARE

    Damage Per Projectile: 3775
    Clip Size: 4
    Fire Rate: 2 / Second
    Reload: 0.5 Seconds
    Splash Area: 80

    HELLHOUND

    Damage Per Projectile: 23152
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 2.667 / Second
    Reload: 3 Seconds

    SHEILA

    Damage Per Projectile: 3337
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 20 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    BROTHER JEREMIAH

    Damage Per Projectile: 4000
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 20 / Second
    Reload: 0.35 Seconds

    Flat Armor: 100
    Flat Armor Bonus to all Allied Sentinels within a Moderate Radius: 100

    KARA

    Damage Per Projectile: 25750
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 4 / Second
    Reload: 2 Seconds

    SARKIS*

    Damage Per Projectile: 47625
    Clip Size: 1
    Fire Rate: N/A
    Reload: 2 Seconds
    Splash Area: 80

    *For the time being, only Primary weapon information is provided.  Secondary weapon info will come when time permits.
    can u pls look on elite Titan non of titans are the same are base titan is diffrent twin titan and gogo bar titan not all the same it looks we have bug on elite titan

  • JamesHowlett
    JamesHowlett
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,005
    MMD-MMD said:
    Still confused between the co-relations of fire rate per seconds  and Clip side. 
    If a SF have 3 clip side and 20 fire rate per seconds, does it mean that the  SF will shoot 3 clip-reload-and fire 3 clip again  close to seven times (3X7=21) per seconds?
    If the reload time was 0 yes.  But it's wait .05 seconds Fire 1 round, wait .05 seconds fire one round, wait .05 seconds fire one round, reload taking X seconds, so on and so forth.  The fire rate assumes they don't have to reload but they do.  That takes time.  An Operator only gets 6 shots off per second. due to reload time.  .05 fire .05 fire .05 fire .35 reload .05 fire .05 fire .05 fire equaling .65 seconds but they then have to reload .35 seconds which completes at the 1 second mark.  And the cycle begins again.
    Daisy's!  I'm pushing up Daisy's!  Cause everyone loves Daisy's!  Everything is perfect in this game and I love Daisy's
  • JamesHowlett
    JamesHowlett
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,005
    So can we now assume DPP (Damage Per Projectile) is going to be used from now on to describe this function?  I still think DPR Damage Per Round sounds better ;-)

    Or is there another reason you chose this nomenclature?   
    DPR does sound a little better, I agree.  The reason I chose DPP is because I think projectile is a broader term: it could mean missile or grenade or bullet.  I feel like "round" doesn't aptly apply to all those things.  That said, if everyone prefers DPR, that's fine with me.  I think either is acceptable.
    TroyW said:
    Are these numbers OFFICIAL - meaning Kixeye gave them to you or do these come from you observing and testing????

    By the way you have one of the Flat Armor figures on the Lead Heavy Operator - Should be on the Lead Preserver.
    I pulled them right outta the raw data sheets, so they're about as official as they can get.  It's always possible I misread a line or that there is a typo, but it all looks legit to me.

    Also, thanks for the call out, you are (of course) correct that the flat armor belongs on the Lead Preserver.  It has been corrected.
    Troy. WT is Kixeye. He's the new guy in charge of a ton of programming. I trust his numbers.
    Minor correction, sir.  I am one of the designers.  I am not nearly good enough at calculus or trig to be an engineer. :)
    MMD-MMD said:
    Still confused between the co-relations of fire rate per seconds  and Clip side. 
    If a SF have 3 clip side and 20 fire rate per seconds, does it mean that the  SF will shoot 3 clip-reload-and fire 3 clip again  close to seven times (3X7=21) per seconds?
    Keep in mind when the clip empties, the reload must occur.  So, the 3 bullets in the clip are fired at a rate of 20 per second, but then the 0.35 reload time must occur.  The result is about 9 bullets fired in about a second.  Many of our new units utilize a small clip size (like 3) to simulate "burst fire" which is common for maintaining accuracy.
    Pretty certain you meant 6 rounds not 9 in this final example

    Daisy's!  I'm pushing up Daisy's!  Cause everyone loves Daisy's!  Everything is perfect in this game and I love Daisy's
  • Markus2727
    Markus2727
    Greenhorn
    Joined May 2014 Posts: 20
    So can we now assume DPP (Damage Per Projectile) is going to be used from now on to describe this function?  I still think DPR Damage Per Round sounds better ;-)

    Or is there another reason you chose this nomenclature?   
    DPR does sound a little better, I agree.  The reason I chose DPP is because I think projectile is a broader term: it could mean missile or grenade or bullet.  I feel like "round" doesn't aptly apply to all those things.  That said, if everyone prefers DPR, that's fine with me.  I think either is acceptable.
    TroyW said:
    Are these numbers OFFICIAL - meaning Kixeye gave them to you or do these come from you observing and testing????

    By the way you have one of the Flat Armor figures on the Lead Heavy Operator - Should be on the Lead Preserver.
    I pulled them right outta the raw data sheets, so they're about as official as they can get.  It's always possible I misread a line or that there is a typo, but it all looks legit to me.

    Also, thanks for the call out, you are (of course) correct that the flat armor belongs on the Lead Preserver.  It has been corrected.
    Troy. WT is Kixeye. He's the new guy in charge of a ton of programming. I trust his numbers.
    Minor correction, sir.  I am one of the designers.  I am not nearly good enough at calculus or trig to be an engineer. :)
    MMD-MMD said:
    Still confused between the co-relations of fire rate per seconds  and Clip side. 
    If a SF have 3 clip side and 20 fire rate per seconds, does it mean that the  SF will shoot 3 clip-reload-and fire 3 clip again  close to seven times (3X7=21) per seconds?
    Keep in mind when the clip empties, the reload must occur.  So, the 3 bullets in the clip are fired at a rate of 20 per second, but then the 0.35 reload time must occur.  The result is about 9 bullets fired in about a second.  Many of our new units utilize a small clip size (like 3) to simulate "burst fire" which is common for maintaining accuracy.
    The Problem with the way you simulate Burst Fire though is that no unit really benefits from bandolier. The only unit that gets a better boost from bandolier then if you would use compressed magazine is the Nightmare due to its reload taking only one fifth of its total 2.5s firing cycle. If you would change some of the units to have a much larger clip size but slower firing rate and/or damage in return we would also have a unit that would have true sustain damage. The one unit i really want to see this on is the heavy operator. It would potentially diversify heavy operator and normal operator much better instead of just making the heavy operator better overall because the heavy operator would then not be as good against armored targets.
  • Phanstern
    Phanstern
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Sep 2014 Posts: 507
    So would Kara benefit more with compressed mag then with Bandolier?
  • JamesHowlett
    JamesHowlett
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,005
    Phanstern said:
    So would Kara benefit more with compressed mag then with Bandolier?
    Have to do the math.

    I may have some bandwidth for that later today.
    Daisy's!  I'm pushing up Daisy's!  Cause everyone loves Daisy's!  Everything is perfect in this game and I love Daisy's
  • Daniel Holmes
    Daniel Holmes
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Aug 2012 Posts: 6,285
    Phanstern said:
    So would Kara benefit more with compressed mag then with Bandolier?
    Have to do the math.

    I may have some bandwidth for that later today.
    Well hopefully you calculate it out and the answer is no. 

    As I have level 6 Comp Mag currently and have like 15, and only have a handful of level 1 Bandolier's at the moment. Lol
    Sorry about whenever I talk in all Caps. I am not yelling at you. It's just a thing me and my guys do on WC, Got to get the natives stirred up somehow in this Turtle Commander game we all play now, and usually playing the game alone doesn't do it.
  • JamesHowlett
    JamesHowlett
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,005
    Ok let's look at Kara:

    KARA
    DPS: 28091
    Damage Per Projectile: 25750
    Clip Size: 3
    Fire Rate: 4 / Second
    Reload: 2 Seconds

    If you add a lvl 6 Compressed Mag you get a 35% quicker reload meaning instead of 2 seconds it will only take 1.3 seconds.  Taking that into account you get the following:

    .25 seconds fire doing 25750 damage, .25 seconds fire doing 25750 damage, .25 seconds fire doing 25750 damage, reload taking 1.3 seconds.  So in 2.05 seconds your new DPS is 37683 or a 34% increase in damage per second.

    If you add a lvl 6 Bandolier you get a 35% increase in fire rate meaning instead of 4 per second it's 5.4 per second.  Taking that into account you get the following:

    .19 seconds fire doing 25750 damage, .19 seconds fire doing 25750 damage, .19 seconds fire doing 25750 damage, reload taking 2 seconds.  So in 2.57 seconds your new DPS is 30058 or a 7 % increase in DPS.

    Given the choice I'd rather have Compressed Mag on Kara.  Bandolier should work better on units with a higher rate of fire since a 35% increase on a higher rate of fire will result in a greater increase.

    Daisy's!  I'm pushing up Daisy's!  Cause everyone loves Daisy's!  Everything is perfect in this game and I love Daisy's
  • Phanstern
    Phanstern
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Sep 2014 Posts: 507
    Nice work James :)
  • JamesHowlett
    JamesHowlett
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,005
    Phanstern said:
    Nice work James :)
    No problem.  My accounting background is showing.   :p
    Daisy's!  I'm pushing up Daisy's!  Cause everyone loves Daisy's!  Everything is perfect in this game and I love Daisy's
  • JamesHowlett
    JamesHowlett
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,005
    Bandolier should be awesome on units with an already very high rate of fire and a high DPP (DPR) like Preservers.  
    Daisy's!  I'm pushing up Daisy's!  Cause everyone loves Daisy's!  Everything is perfect in this game and I love Daisy's
  • JamesHowlett
    JamesHowlett
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Feb 2013 Posts: 5,005
    Oh and Compressed Mag is an absolute MUST for Marksmen.  Shortening that reload period should make them an absolute beast.
    Daisy's!  I'm pushing up Daisy's!  Cause everyone loves Daisy's!  Everything is perfect in this game and I love Daisy's
  • WrongThinker
    WrongThinker
    BP Game Team
    Joined Mar 2013 Posts: 1,705
    The Problem with the way you simulate Burst Fire though is that no unit really benefits from bandolier. The only unit that gets a better boost from bandolier then if you would use compressed magazine is the Nightmare due to its reload taking only one fifth of its total 2.5s firing cycle. If you would change some of the units to have a much larger clip size but slower firing rate and/or damage in return we would also have a unit that would have true sustain damage. The one unit i really want to see this on is the heavy operator. It would potentially diversify heavy operator and normal operator much better instead of just making the heavy operator better overall because the heavy operator would then not be as good against armored targets.
    There are instances where Bandolier can be useful, but I think your assessment is on point.  To be entirely blunt, when Bandolier shipped I didn't have a full understanding of how we were simulating burst fire, so I did expect it to be useful in more instances than it turned out to be.  We may at some point make changes like the ones you've described, but for the time being we are going to leave them as is so as not to disrupt people's current builds (and because we're working on other things).

    I also think that, all though Bandolier isn't as useful as I wished it was, that it does still have its uses.
    Lead Designer - Battle Pirates
    KIXEYE
  • MMD-MMD
    MMD-MMD
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Apr 2013 Posts: 587
    So can we now assume DPP (Damage Per Projectile) is going to be used from now on to describe this function?  I still think DPR Damage Per Round sounds better ;-)

    Or is there another reason you chose this nomenclature?   
    DPR does sound a little better, I agree.  The reason I chose DPP is because I think projectile is a broader term: it could mean missile or grenade or bullet.  I feel like "round" doesn't aptly apply to all those things.  That said, if everyone prefers DPR, that's fine with me.  I think either is acceptable.
    TroyW said:
    Are these numbers OFFICIAL - meaning Kixeye gave them to you or do these come from you observing and testing????

    By the way you have one of the Flat Armor figures on the Lead Heavy Operator - Should be on the Lead Preserver.
    I pulled them right outta the raw data sheets, so they're about as official as they can get.  It's always possible I misread a line or that there is a typo, but it all looks legit to me.

    Also, thanks for the call out, you are (of course) correct that the flat armor belongs on the Lead Preserver.  It has been corrected.
    Troy. WT is Kixeye. He's the new guy in charge of a ton of programming. I trust his numbers.
    Minor correction, sir.  I am one of the designers.  I am not nearly good enough at calculus or trig to be an engineer. :)
    MMD-MMD said:
    Still confused between the co-relations of fire rate per seconds  and Clip side. 
    If a SF have 3 clip side and 20 fire rate per seconds, does it mean that the  SF will shoot 3 clip-reload-and fire 3 clip again  close to seven times (3X7=21) per seconds?
    Keep in mind when the clip empties, the reload must occur.  So, the 3 bullets in the clip are fired at a rate of 20 per second, but then the 0.35 reload time must occur.  The result is about 9 bullets fired in about a second.  Many of our new units utilize a small clip size (like 3) to simulate "burst fire" which is common for maintaining accuracy.
    I can see how you get 9 bullets (0.35 seconds reload time x3) is close to 1 second, so your conclusion is 3 clips per second and a total of 9 bullets per seconds.  But the speed of firing depends on the rate of fire per second, The higher the rate, the faster the firing. I don't see the 20 in the calculation?
This discussion has been closed.