Hailstorm Test Results

Rosie, yes I'm a dude
Rosie, yes I'm a dude
Strike-force Captain
Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 706
edited 4 Jan 2012, 9:35AM
This test was done against 2-VM3s (6 mortar shells per salvo). The damage shown was after a full 5 minute fight. The FF has no armor other than what comes on it. The FF has 6 Hailstorm-C for wepons. Durring the battle all 6 mortar shells were killed often. The most to get through was 4 out of 6 shells (this happened once). Most of the time it was 1 or 2 shell that made it through. Remember, since there is a spread on the VM, like other mortar wepons, not all of the ones that made it through we inflicting much damage. Will be fun to try on a base...
[QUOTE=Spack]frankly are being led away by the promise of pixel ****.[/QUOTE]
  • Dread Pyrate Turtle
    Dread Pyrate Turtle
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Jul 2011 Posts: 1,534
    So much for that 25% accuracy stat I guess. Good post.
    [QUOTE]"I'm a hacker!" - Will Harbin[/QUOTE]
    [QUOTE]"He was once a legit player like you, until he took a cheat tool to the knee." - Xandamere[/QUOTE]
  • Burmashave
    Burmashave
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Jun 2011 Posts: 617
    Excellent post. Thanks for providing some quality data.
    Unfortunately, players repeatedly “bubbling” each other are abusing this system.
  • dude26212
    dude26212
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined May 2011 Posts: 668
    question did the ship move on its own at first or did it just sit there because there was nothing to target?
  • Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 706
    dude26212 wrote: »
    question did the ship move on its own at first or did it just sit there because there was nothing to target?
    With no "offensive" wepons, it did not move on its own. I had to manually steer it into the range of the VM. I dont think this will present a problem really since i am always actively driving all my ships in a battle.
    [QUOTE=Spack]frankly are being led away by the promise of pixel ****.[/QUOTE]
  • dude26212
    dude26212
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined May 2011 Posts: 668
    allright i was hopein it would move on its own for a auto battle but i guess slapin just one small offensive weapon should fix that problem
  • Derrick824
    Derrick824
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Dec 2010 Posts: 650
    Good post. Estimating from your data, had those been VM4s then most of the time 3-4 shells would have made it through at twice the damage. Also if you used a fleet with all your AMs on one ship like this the other ships wouldn't have that 47% explosive defense and would see 53% more damage than shown here. And using a ship full of AMs = huge loss in firepower to your fleet.
  • Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 706
    dude26212 wrote: »
    allright i was hopein it would move on its own for a auto battle but i guess slapin just one small offensive weapon should fix that problem

    Yes, if you were thinking about auto pilot against a salvage, you will need to configure it differently. This ship was really just built for this test. Oh, FYI, they are kinda pricey resource wise...Time to go hit some bases!
    [QUOTE=Spack]frankly are being led away by the promise of pixel ****.[/QUOTE]
  • Harlok
    Harlok
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Jul 2011 Posts: 174
    good test, thanks for have post it. I will add some curious questions :)

    now I wonder: with the STAR (Rank firing bonuses) in the ship, increases the number of shots?
    And having the engine in ships, further lose accuracy?
    Someone knows the answers?
    Born sector: 9
  • Rufi0
    Rufi0
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    Joined May 2011 Posts: 1,270
    nice work rosie. cheers
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  • Spack
    Spack
    Master Tactician
    Joined Jun 2011 Posts: 2,202
    So Rosie has just proved that a single hailstorm boat without armour can sit as dead as a dodo in mortar rain and last for 5 minutes?

    Tested to be balanced my arse!
    DESTRO said: 
    The Almighty Spack

    KIXEYE Swag said:
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  • iownusobad
    iownusobad
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 372
    So much for that 25% accuracy stat I guess. Good post.

    This is correct. 6 salvos for the vms. Do not forget 30 salvos on the HailStorms. 25% of 30 is roughly 7.5

    so the 6 HS are overlapping the 6 salvos by 1.5 salvo. LOL

    If u do the math the test results do reflect approximately a 25% Accuracy.


    So the main argument here isn't if the stats are correct. Every video and test I have seen shows that the hailstorms are working as intended. The question here is weather or not they are balanced. U can argue they need a nerf but if they are nerfed significantly more than 25% they will become useless to the point that its pointless to have them. As apparently u need a whole FF full of the highest teir variety to stop 2 lvl 3 vms. Which means if u had atleast 3 lvl 4 vms and bombards over your howies it wouldnt work.
    RedBeard/Smash INC
  • kingj0n
    kingj0n
    Master Tactician
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 2,429
    well to be fair, 1xVM 3 attacking a single levi, the levi lasted a couple minutes or so because the VM missed most of the time. Actually, I didn't even kill the TIT3/4 levi ship as the person retreated later on. Group all the ships together, the whole fleet can take those tiny dmg.
    Add 2-3 more VMs, then the misses are less noticable.
    Make it VM4 they die..

    So this helps some..

    Test the same style ship with no AM, then you can prolly get better data.
  • Amir Vansover
    Amir Vansover
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 110
    I did some statistic calculation of the benefit of each HS system

    how many shells can system A intercept
    at least
    1 58%
    2 16%
    3 2%

    how many shells can system B intercept
    at least
    1 68%
    2 26%
    3 5%
    4 0%

    how many shells can system c intercept
    at least
    1 76%
    2 37%
    3 10%
    4 2%
    5 0%

    So for example, HS B system got 26% to stop 2 shells or more

    * The 0% is not actual 0%, but it rounds to a very small number
    ** I hate statistics :)
    *** No... Im not going to do such calculation for 5 HS system C on 5 ships

    Due to game mechanic, you might get different results from putting 5 HS system on 1 ship or 1 HS system on 5 ships.

    For example, take one ship with 6 mortars on it, which comes in range of enemy ship, all the shell will fire at once, and also will hit at same time. So Rosie gave us a very good example why you want to avoid it.

    In this case, the ship got 6 incoming shells, each salvo got 18% to miss (1-0.75^6), so some are bound to miss. But not just that, if all the HS system fire at once and hit at once, we wasted ammo (if you can call it that way), since some shells got hit by 2 or more HS ammo, where only 1 is enough. Moreover, if I'm correct about the game mechanic, Rosie ship can handle only 5 mortar shells, and after that it need to reload.

    While if you put 1 HS system on 5 ships, you waste much less or none at all (depending on what happened if ship is stacked exactly on the same spot of other ship). you will get same or better results (as far as statistic can allow).

    The advantage of Rosie ship is that you can tag it to other fleets and might get more versatility when doing so.

    One last thing for Kixeye… I think this weapon will become key ingredient for future fleets, you might want to give new player an access to it.
  • Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 706
    Harlok wrote: »
    good test, thanks for have post it. I will add some curious questions :)

    now I wonder: with the STAR (Rank firing bonuses) in the ship, increases the number of shots?
    And having the engine in ships, further lose accuracy?
    Someone knows the answers?

    The rank of the ship will increase the reload rate. However, i doubt it will be fast enough to fire mort than once per VM salvo. I think it probably is effected by engines, like everything else.
    [QUOTE=Spack]frankly are being led away by the promise of pixel ****.[/QUOTE]
  • Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 706
    Amir,
    Watching the mechanics of how the wepon works was a key goal in my test. the functionality of the wepon is hard to put a number to, but i can tell you that it was avarage in functionality, not great, but not horrible either...
    [QUOTE=Spack]frankly are being led away by the promise of pixel ****.[/QUOTE]
  • Themistocles
    Themistocles
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 1,808
    Rosie, thank you for your hands on testing of this system.
    To those people who take things on this game a bit too seriously....it's a game, not real life. Chill out a bit

    First Command: A Battle Pirates Story

    http://forums.kixeye.com/threads/143711-First-Command-A-Battle-Pirates-Story
  • Amir Vansover
    Amir Vansover
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 110
    Amir,
    Watching the mechanics of how the wepon works was a key goal in my test. the functionality of the wepon is hard to put a number to, but i can tell you that it was avarage in functionality, not great, but not horrible either...

    This is balance, good for stopping mortar while you are on the move, but not enough to allow you to stand too much in one place.
  • Spack
    Spack
    Master Tactician
    Joined Jun 2011 Posts: 2,202
    This is balance, good for stopping mortar while you are on the move, but not enough to allow you to stand too much in one place.


    You just witnessed a ship with zero armour hold off two Vms for 5 minutes sat in the same spot. What on earth leads you to your second conclusion?
    DESTRO said: 
    The Almighty Spack

    KIXEYE Swag said:
    Spack is actually my Tyler Durden.
  • TheRealCore
    TheRealCore
    Unicorn Overlord
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 5,474
    Spack wrote: »
    You just witnessed a ship with zero armour hold off two Vms for 5 minutes sat in the same spot. What on earth leads you to your second conclusion?

    Yes, with 0 Armor,(apart from the base-Armor of 1074)
    Atta-Comb 
  • Spack
    Spack
    Master Tactician
    Joined Jun 2011 Posts: 2,202
    Yes, with 0 Armor,(apart from the base-Armor of 1074)

    So thats at least 40 minutes a DU fort could have held off those VMs. Overpowered much?
    DESTRO said: 
    The Almighty Spack

    KIXEYE Swag said:
    Spack is actually my Tyler Durden.
  • Dread Pyrate Turtle
    Dread Pyrate Turtle
    Force to be Reckoned With
    Joined Jul 2011 Posts: 1,534
    Spack wrote: »
    What on earth leads you to your second conclusion?
    I'm going to guess that it is the effects of the glass cleaner residue on the windows which he has obviously been licking that led him to those conclusions...
    [QUOTE]"I'm a hacker!" - Will Harbin[/QUOTE]
    [QUOTE]"He was once a legit player like you, until he took a cheat tool to the knee." - Xandamere[/QUOTE]
  • kingj0n
    kingj0n
    Master Tactician
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 2,429
    It did 1370 damage, which is like 2 direct hits. Most of the mortars miss. At least, when people stand still on my VM3s, they can take a few minutes of being fired at and not die.

    However, when you're on the move and then you stop, it will hit you easier because it is being adjusted to your movement. Which will always hit behind you as you keep moving, stopping makes you stop where they will most likely land. Stay there again, it'll miss more often, however, having 5 ships in the same spot will make you take a lot of overall damage. Thus will allow the weak sents to pick you off easier.


    But I read that someone said that the VMs hit more direct starting an hour ago.

    If you put that 1 ship under 4 other ships, from the OP, the other ships would probably have died because they don't have 47% explosive damage reduction leaving that antimortar ship useless.
  • Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 706
    This is balance, good for stopping mortar while you are on the move, but not enough to allow you to stand too much in one place.

    No, not the conclusion i came to. If I am hitting a base i can rush, i will not use the hailstorm. When on the move, it is easy enough to avoid the VM fire. It does offer effective power stopping VM fire when standing absolutely still (you know, like if you were killing a howitzer or something...). I will redo the test tonight, when some higher level buddies are on, with 2 VM4s and post the results.

    Also, i wasnt intending on fueling Spak's concern, but the results do speak. I guess I better go kill some bases before they take away the new toys. This does, however, hint heavily to a drac VM with hailstorm "evasion"...
    [QUOTE=Spack]frankly are being led away by the promise of pixel ****.[/QUOTE]
  • Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 706
    kingj0n wrote: »
    It did 1370 damage, which is like 2 direct hits. Most of the mortars miss. At least, when people stand still on my VM3s, they can take a few minutes of being fired at and not die.

    However, when you're on the move and then you stop, it will hit you easier because it is being adjusted to your movement. Which will always hit behind you as you keep moving, stopping makes you stop where they will most likely land. Stay there again, it'll miss more often, however, having 5 ships in the same spot will make you take a lot of overall damage. Thus will allow the weak sents to pick you off easier.


    But I read that someone said that the VMs hit more direct starting an hour ago.

    If you put that 1 ship under 4 other ships, from the OP, the other ships would probably have died because they don't have 47% explosive damage reduction leaving that antimortar ship useless.

    You are right, the hailstorm is useless. Dont use it, I wont. I just did a test for fun...
    [QUOTE=Spack]frankly are being led away by the promise of pixel ****.[/QUOTE]
  • Gavin Lord
    Gavin Lord
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Jul 2011 Posts: 213
    I also did some tests.

    First I put one HS on one SW and put it one on one against a single lvl4 Vic mortar. The SW was completely stationary. Literally 3-4 of the salvos was making it through (BTW - VIC has 4 salvos not 6).

    Second, I added a second SW again with a single HS. This ships were again stationary. After four volleys (16 shells) I got splash damage from one salvo.

    So the accuracy is flat out awful but they do work and do help. Obviously if the ships were moving the results would be even better.

    I have also hit a few bases with three HS on a full hammerhead base fleet and they did make a huge differance.

    One thing to add. I have already added them to several FvF fleets and I could swear they are much more effective against ship mortars. They still miss from time to time but the accuracy (or hit rate) seems much much better. Not sure why...
  • Amir Vansover
    Amir Vansover
    Minor Nuisance
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 110
    Rosie found a braking point... try it with 3 VM level 3 (4 shells are ignor unlike the 1 before), and it won't last a minute

    Also, when stacking ships under that ship, all of them get dmg from the missed shels

    So yes... I think this is balanced
  • Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 706
    Gavin Lord wrote: »
    I also did some tests.

    First I put one HS on one SW and put it one on one against a single lvl4 Vic mortar. The SW was completely stationary. Literally 3-4 of the salvos was making it through (BTW - VIC has 4 salvos not 6).

    Second, I added a second SW again with a single HS. This ships were again stationary. After four volleys (16 shells) I got splash damage from one salvo.

    So the accuracy is flat out awful but they do work and do help. Obviously if the ships were moving the results would be even better.

    I have also hit a few bases with three HS on a full hammerhead base fleet and they did make a huge differance.

    One thing to add. I have already added them to several FvF fleets and I could swear they are much more effective against ship mortars. They still miss from time to time but the accuracy (or hit rate) seems much much better. Not sure why...

    I did not redo the test yet with the 2 VM4s as I said I would do. I will.

    2 VM3s absolutely have 6 shells per salvo. And 1 VM4 absolutely has 4 shells per salvo.

    I van do the test with a FF all mortar to compare the accuracy differance between PVP and base attack. The damage result will not lend a good comparison, but how many shells that are destroyed will.

    More to come for those who are interested.
    [QUOTE=Spack]frankly are being led away by the promise of pixel ****.[/QUOTE]
  • Burmashave
    Burmashave
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Jun 2011 Posts: 617
    Gavin Lord wrote: »
    One thing to add. I have already added them to several FvF fleets and I could swear they are much more effective against ship mortars. They still miss from time to time but the accuracy (or hit rate) seems much much better. Not sure why...

    I'd wager this has to do with the volume of mortar rounds being fired at one time. 3 Shells fired at a time from a level 8-9 salvage is different then 8 shells fired from 2 VM4's.

    In the end, i think we will see that 5 hailstorms in a fleet will effectively mitigate damage from 2 VM4's. If a person has more then that many VM's firing onto a single location then those extra shells will get through untouched. Of course this is just my hypothesis.
    Unfortunately, players repeatedly “bubbling” each other are abusing this system.
  • TheGodFather-445
    TheGodFather-445
    Skilled Warrior
    Joined Oct 2011 Posts: 357
    This test was done against 2-VM3s (6 mortar shells per salvo). The damage shown was after a full 5 minute fight. The FF has no armor other than what comes on it. The FF has 6 Hailstorm-C for wepons. Durring the battle all 6 mortar shells were killed often. The most to get through was 4 out of 6 shells (this happened once). Most of the time it was 1 or 2 shell that made it through. Remember, since there is a spread on the VM, like other mortar wepons, not all of the ones that made it through we inflicting much damage. Will be fun to try on a base...

    u will get a different result if u place on hailstorm on every ship... reload time is different .. u can get better results
    :mad:Don't you dare!:mad:
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  • Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Rosie, yes I'm a dude
    Strike-force Captain
    Joined Aug 2011 Posts: 706
    XanDieSeL wrote: »
    u will get a different result if u place on hailstorm on every ship... reload time is different .. u can get better results


    My guess is that there will be an improvement of performance if you spread them around. I just havent tried it yet. I refitted this one first since it had no armor and was basically there to be a cargo ship. I didn't want to refit a useful ship for testing purposes.

    Can you offer any details of the tests you have done?
    [QUOTE=Spack]frankly are being led away by the promise of pixel ****.[/QUOTE]
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